Posted on 12/04/2003 11:55:41 AM PST by areafiftyone
Without him, no hijacking.
He is, therefore, a participant in the actual execution of the deed and as guilty as the jihadists on the planes.
I hope ya'll have as much inmate on inmate murder over there as we do, maybe this POS will get his virgins in the near future.
Without him, no hijacking.
True, but without the parents of the hijackers, there´d be no hijacking either. So, you see that we have to draw a line. And my state draws that line between those who actually did it, those who encouraged others to do it (promising an advantage, giving money, telling them to do it, etc) and those who helped somehow. It´s my states decision, I´m fine with that, and you don´t need to agree with that. All I request you is to respect it. If you can´t we´ve to live with it.
I think we´ve exchanged our arguements. Therefore I wish you a nice weekend, Michael
This man deserves no rewards.
Those who refuse to learn from the past are bound to repeat it.
So tell me when did Jesus Christ tell us that it´s right to kill others?
When did Jesus Christ tell us that we have no right to self-defense?
The parents did not know their sons would commit these crimes. Those who helped the terrorists knew they were committing these crimes.
Americans like to judge people by who they are, not by who their father was--or who their sons are.
So, you see that we have to draw a line. And my state draws that line between those who actually did it, those who encouraged others to do it (promising an advantage, giving money, telling them to do it, etc) and those who helped somehow. It´s my states decision, I´m fine with that, and you don´t need to agree with that. All I request you is to respect it.
Yeah, right--we have to draw the line, but it's up to the state where to draw it. No individual rights, no objective standards--once you're in power, you can do anything you want. If the state draws the kind of lines that Hitler drew, we are still supposed to "respect it."
Why do you want a third war, Michael? Weren't two enough?
May I remind you of Matthew 5, 38-48 ???
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ..."
As a military individual, you understand that, very often, the trigger puller is the lowest ranking individual in the entire enterprise.
The "crime" is the murder of 3,000 human beings and it was a team effort such as any military operation is a team effort. One can always argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and try to say which part of the team effort was the crime and which part was not. You can carry such intellectual exercises to the conclusion that the terrorists sitting in the pilot's seats of those planes were merely hijackers flying unsafely.
Under U.S. law, such scenarios are classified as "Conspiracies". The elements and punishment for conspiracy are well outlined and explained U.S. military law in Punitive Articles of the UCMJ: Article 81Conspiracy
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Elements:
(1) That the accused entered into an agreement with one or more persons to commit an offense under the code; and
(2) That, while the agreement continued to exist, and while the accused remained a party to the agreement, the accused or at least one of the co-conspirators performed an overt act for the purpose of bringing about the object of the conspiracy.
Maximum punishment:
Any person subject to the code who is found guilty of conspiracy shall be subject to the maximum punishment authorized for the offense which is the object of the conspiracy, except that in no case shall the death penalty be imposed.
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It is not the death penalty or lack thereof that is repulsive. The UCMJ does not provide for the death penalty.
It is sentencing a man to less than 44 hours per human death that is repulsive.
And punishment in Germany follows two aims: preventing him from doing it again/integrate him into society and punish him for his crimes. Apparently, unlike you, my country believes in the New Testament (love your enemies). We don´t need to take it litterally. We can forgive, and we don´t believe that a state has the right to kill except in self-defense (war). The saying "eye for an eye" doesn´t work - just look at Israel/Palestine. The last judgment is up to God, not to us!
Let's try to keep God out of this. The last time that Germany invoked "Gott Mit Uns" to justify their national policy and inscribed those words on their military belt buckles, things did not turn out so well.
This "Germany loves it's neighbors unlike you Old Testament Americans" is an example the the manic depressive moral values extremes I mentioned in Post #14. In exterminating the untermemchen, Germans invoked God. In treating a terrorist with kid gloves, you now invoke God.
Let's try to keep things on the "Render unto Caesar that things that are Caesars" level with the knowledge that we have two different Caesars.
That being said, Western Europe's endless cycle of war and violence and genocide ended when America's Caesar enforced his value system upon Western Europe in 1945.
If Germany is at peace now, you can thank that American value system that did not try to get your eyes but also your heart and your liver and your lungs as the French did at Versailles.
If Germany is at peace now, you can thank that American value system that did not try to "forgive" the Nazis.
As I understand it, in Germany, it is still illegal for a military model builder to adorn his model of an Me.109 with a historically correct Nazi swastika.
Not much "forgiveness" there. Not that there should be.
Sure, but we´re not in the military. In the armed forces, the lower ranks have no alternative, they obey orders (except the orders mean a crime, etc). The criminals decided on their own which part they played. That´s why we judge everyone on his individual guilt. The hijacker wanted to crush the plane into WTC A, so he did it. His accomplice has chosen to stay in Hamburg, so he did not that much for the crime.
And again, in the military, those who give orders are responsible for the actions of their soldiers. It´s the same here: bin Laden is also responsible for what Atta and others did. He encouraged them to committ murder in 3000+ cases. The guy on trial right now did not encourage or promote the murder, he did his little part. He surely was no leading person.
Let's try to keep God out of this. The last time that Germany invoked "Gott Mit Uns" to justify their national policy and inscribed those words on their military belt buckles, things did not turn out so well.
A rant again. Where´s the connection between the Nazi era and today´s Germany and todays trial? Nothing. Our justice system is based on the Christian values, unlike in the Nazi era.
This "Germany loves it's neighbors unlike you Old Testament Americans" is an example the the manic depressive moral values extremes I mentioned in Post #14. In exterminating the untermemchen, Germans invoked God. In treating a terrorist with kid gloves, you now invoke God.
You still haven´t told me the connection between the Nazi era and our democratic justice system. Our moral values are conclusions of the Christian religion and our experiences of the Nazi past. We will never treat a prisoner or a suspect the way the Nazis did it, and we respect the value of each life, even of those people who have did so cruel things. Even today, a Hitler would not get more than a (literally) life-long imprisonment. No matter how many deaths he may be responsible for.
Forgiveness has nothing to do with improper self-defense or punishment. You can punish someone and forgive him to the extent, that the state rejects any form of taking revenge.
Finally, yes, I disregard the "eye for eye" quote. It´s not appropriate to found a justice system on it. Every Sunday I pray the pater-noster (Our Father...), and every Sunday, I announce: "as we also have forgiven our debtors."
So what about forgiving them? It´s not that we invite them to do their awful work a second time, but at least we´re not following our emotions but look at the objective individual offense of them.
It´s the law, and if you don´t understand our view now, I have failed. My task was to present you the position of me, my government and my people, and if you still do not understand my words, I can´t help you anymore. My task is not to persuade you, I did the best I can to explain it to you.
FReegards,
Michael
A rant again. Where´s the connection between the Nazi era and today´s Germany and todays trial? Nothing.
"Gott Mit Uns" was inscribed on German belt buckles in 1914 before there were any such thing as Nazis.
My point is that claiming that you are following God while your opponent is not has been used to justify all sorts of trouble in this world.
The connection between the Nazi era and today is that Germany does not have a stable moral compass that it can look back on to provide stability for assuming any "holier than thou" attitude in the year 2003.
Depending on your age, either your father or your grandfather would have been involved in the Nazi era and the parents and grandparents have an effect on the child.
My personal opinion is that Germany, like a reformed alcoholic or like the son of an alcoholic, has reacted to the orgy of bloodshed and genocide that Germany was responsible for.
It has now gone over to the other extreme.
Just as the alcoholic or son of the alcoholic that rails against all alcohol, Germany now condemns the U.S. for exercising harsher punishments on individuals that have done nothing than, say, help murder 3,000 innocent civilians.
The son of the alcoholic who condemns the man having a glass of wine and proclaims himself to be morally superior to the wine drinker is very much the product of his father's alcoholic past.
So it is with Germany's new-found exagerated reverence for a crimminal's life that believes that 44 hours in prison for each human murdered is suitable punishment and claims a moral superiority over Americans who disagree.
Such an attitude is very much a direct connection with and a product of Germany's Nazi past.
Oh, I think it's exactly the same extreme, only with a different justification!
There is quite an amount of irony in what you wrote in #14--I thought you were aware of it and intended it: "Now, Germans believe that human life is so precious that a terrorist planner should only lose 15 years of it even if he helps murder 3,000 individuals."
As putupon said, 43.8 hours / death means "life is cheap." The life of innocents is cheap, that is--the life of murderers is precious. And that's exactly how it was in the Third Reich. New bottle, same beer.
Can you now see why we're worried, Michael? BTW Hitler was elected democratically, too--it's freedom that matters, not democracy.
Opponent? Which oppenent? The US justice system is not our oppoenent! We have our system, you have yours. We believe that ours is based on the Christian values, and yours is not. But we´re not opponents, and our systems are not in a competition.
Oh, and I deeply believe that we have a moral compass. Our system is stable, and you should prove the opposite.
We´re not in the other extreme, we just turned our backs on unhuman injustice, on cruel punishment, on unnecessary penalties. We judge individuals.
We do not differentiate in the number of deaths caused by one action. Osama could have killed 1, 1,000 or 1,000,000 people - he still would face the life sentence. And anyone who helped him without being the actual offender or encourager would face 15 years.
Get it: we judge the individual and we have legal maximum penalties.
Get it: we don´t have problems with people saying that the fine should be higher, but we have problems with people saying that our moral judgment would not be appropriate. I respond to those that our system follows the ideals of the New Testament, and that such a system based on Jesus principles cannot be immoral. In fact, those who disagree have to prove that their counter-proposal is morally.
The only connection between Nazi Germany and today I can see is, that our judgments are written in German as well.
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