THIS IS A RELIGIOUS WAR:

The Daily Dish ^ | 12/04/03 | Aisa Times On Line

[Texas Jack]

THIS IS A RELIGIOUS WAR: Here's a refreshingly candid take on exactly what we're up against in fundamentalist Islam. It's from an interview with Syed Munawar Hasan, the leader of Pakistan's largest Islamist political party in Asia Times Online:

ATO: "You reckon that there are so many contradictions between the West and the Muslim world, is there any chance of reconciliation and dialogue between the two civilizations?"

Munawar: "There is none. The basic concepts of both civilizations are in total contrast with each other. When I say this I do not address Western civilization as Christianity. I speak of a man-made system completely devoid of divine guidance. Our concepts of God, human beings, the universe, are totally in contrast with the concepts of the Western world. We cannot segregate human lives into private and public, our lives are ruled by divine guidance, not by man-made rules based on his own prejudices and specific mindset characterized by its own dilemmas and shortcomings. Our concept of the universe is not materialistic, and the result of an 'accident'. Instead, it was a very well thought out process envisaged by the creator of the universe with a plan. So these basic concepts have made the difference between ours and Western approaches."

At some point, people in the West will actually listen to what the Islamists are saying. Their problem is not Christianity as such. It is constitutional liberalism. Pity so many liberals (and some religious conservatives) cannot see this.

[Texas Jack]

THIS IS A RELIGIOUS WAR: Here's a refreshingly candid take on exactly what we're up against in fundamentalist Islam. It's from an interview with Syed Munawar Hasan, the leader of Pakistan's largest Islamist political party in Asia Times Online:

ATO: "You reckon that there are so many contradictions between the West and the Muslim world, is there any chance of reconciliation and dialogue between the two civilizations?"

Munawar: "There is none. The basic concepts of both civilizations are in total contrast with each other. When I say this I do not address Western civilization as Christianity. I speak of a man-made system completely devoid of divine guidance. Our concepts of God, human beings, the universe, are totally in contrast with the concepts of the Western world. We cannot segregate human lives into private and public, our lives are ruled by divine guidance, not by man-made rules based on his own prejudices and specific mindset characterized by its own dilemmas and shortcomings. Our concept of the universe is not materialistic, and the result of an 'accident'. Instead, it was a very well thought out process envisaged by the creator of the universe with a plan. So these basic concepts have made the difference between ours and Western approaches."

At some point, people in the West will actually listen to what the Islamists are saying. Their problem is not Christianity as such. It is constitutional liberalism. Pity so many liberals (and some religious conservatives) cannot see this.

[joyful1]

This is the truth, but don't expect it to get mentioned in the PC media.

[LiteKeeper]

INTSUM - RELIGION OF PEACE - Cultural War is really a Religious War - no kidding!

[Charles Martel]

At some point, people in the West will actually listen to what the Islamists are saying. Their problem is not Christianity as such. It is constitutional liberalism. Pity so many liberals (and some religious conservatives) cannot see this.

Blowing up women and children in Israel and flying hijacked airliners into Manhattan skyscrapers are incredibly poor ways to send the message: "Get closer to God and abandon secular liberalism", don't you agree? This "interview" contains more spin than truth.

[prov1813man]

This is so right on. Corrupt liberal humanism is what Muslim fundamentalists hate and fear most about the west. The very demons who shriek as our President moves to defend them are the target of those who would gladly murder us all in order to erase the stain of abomination that these traitors, not just to America but to the hope of all mankind, represent. Perhaps we could send a bunch of these so-called "opinion leaders" over to "counsel" the terrorists. hehehe.

[John H K]

Our concept of the universe is not materialistic, and the result of an 'accident'. Instead, it was a very well thought out process envisaged by the creator of the universe with a plan.

Separated at birth: Islamists and Creationidiots?

[Prodigal Son]

Our concept of the universe is not materialistic, and the result of an 'accident'. Instead, it was a very well thought out process envisaged by the creator of the universe with a plan.

I wonder, will this be a three or four hundred reply thread?

[Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit]

This is so right on. Corrupt liberal humanism is what Muslim fundamentalists hate and fear most about the west

I think you are really on to something here. Let me try and break it down a bit.

Basically, the attitudes espoused by the Athiest liberal left who want to negotiate and appease the Islamists is actually that which the fear and hate the most.

The world in which conservatives want to live may, in fact, be one that they can deal with.

Now, it just seems to me that the bambostic rhetoric of the right, which is often a bit more rabble rousing (Donald Rumsfeld) than necessary for our own diplomatic good, simply needs to bring across the message that not all Americans want sexual promiscuity, single parents, drugs and socialism. In other words, specific religious doctrine aside, a democracy can be conservative and righteous if its people strive to be. Unfortunately, our leaders are out crusading, when they should be prostelytizing (ecumenically of course).

[PigRigger]

"Munawar: "There is none. The basic concepts of both civilizations are in total contrast with each other..."

Very true; the Islamic Crusade holds no value with regard to Individual Freedom's and Liberty.

I've always seen this as a cultural war, not a religious one. It is freedom vs. repression; individual rights vs. governmental rights; equality does not exist in the Islamic world.

Conflict and death is always the end result when the Islamic crusade bumps up against another culture.

That is why Iraq is so important. We have to see if it is possible for an Islamic state to be a free and thriving democracy that can live peacefully with it's neighbors. If Iraq fails to manifest itself in a positive manner, the future, our future, will be quite troubling.

[wtc911]

I wonder if the muslim posters will react to it. There are a handful of them.

[Spok]

Truth is always stranger than fiction: while the liberals are trying to shove their twisted doctrines down the throats of all Americans, they are, on the other hand, defending the Islamic Jihadists who are bent on wiping out the liberals. And the conservatives are advocating the use of force to defend...what? The liberals right to live the very kind of life that inspires the Jihad!

[Wombat101]

You miss the greater point: Liberal democracy (in it's true form) and secularism are threats to Islam not because they are in tehmselves nasty concepts, but because they threaten to topple established orders.

The hallmarks of liberal democracy are the questioning of authority, cynicism that leads to exploration and experimentation and belief in the natural rights of the individual.

All of these are at odds with a system (and that is what Islam is, a system that would make a committed commie green with envy, with a religious patina) that bases itself upon the word of God, which cannot be questioned, challenged or fathomed by human beings.

I've listened and what they have to offer pretty much sucks compared to what I already have. If they cannot compete or survive in my world then I refuse to lower myself to theirs.

[Cicero]

The values of true liberal democracy arise out of Christianity, with its incorporation of certain ancient Greek, Roman, and Hebraic ideas.

Freedom and equality are concepts that arose out of Christianity.

Freedom and equality are concepts that are abused by Socialists and Communists, and liberalism is abused by leftists, who have claimed the very name.

But just because liberal democracy has been corrupted doesn't mean that it isn't a good and valuable thing. The Islamists focus on the abuses of western liberalism, but they also fear the positive aspects, because if Muslims began to understand the true concept of freedom, they would no longer be Muslims.

Islam has no concept of free will or human freedom. It's absent from the Quran and absent from most Arab societies today. They only understand control and resentment. They confuse freedom with Socialist and Communist calls to action. So the Imams preach against the abuses of the West, but the fear its best features.

[highlander_UW]

I've always seen this as a cultural war, not a religious one. It is freedom vs. repression; individual rights vs. governmental rights; equality does not exist in the Islamic world.

It's not really an issue of equality, at least from the muslim perspective. Islam means "submission". If one views submission as that to god, then there is no such thing as equality. The problem arises in that someone ends up taking the reins of direction and authority in the name of "Allah". And it is that authority that benefit at the expense of the rank and file muslim. Look at the various mullahs and sheiks. Thier at the top if the chain and live in far greater luxury and power than those they take advantage of. The shieks of Saudi Arabia are riding a wild tiger just praying the beast doesn't turn around and take a bite out of them!

[PigRigger]

"The shieks of Saudi Arabia are riding a wild tiger just praying the beast doesn't turn around and take a bite out of them!"

Correct; They are in a pretty bad situation. If we are successful in Iraq they will have to deal with a population that may yearn for greater freedoms. If we lose; they may have to deal with a renegade Islamic state looking to stir up trouble in the kingdom. Given Iraq's riches in oil, the Saudi's would have some big problems on their doorstep.

Overall, they would have preferred keeping a "controlled" Saddam in power. This scenario would have kept the fundamentalist directing their attacks in our (Israel and the US for the most part) direction.

Yes, Saudi Arabia is riding a wild tiger; about time they join the "party". The ground beneath their feet is eroding quick. It will be interesting to see where they cast their life-line.