Ferocious Gun Battle That Left No Bodies

The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 12-2-2003 | Jack Fairweather

[NeonKnight]

I don't understand how any of the enemy got out alive much less how they were able to retrieve their dead. Don't we attack into the ambush? We should be walking over the dead bodies and checking their pockets and stuff. With 4 Apache's overhead ... I don't understand.

That is how the Marines do it. That is why we are sending them back.

[txhurl]

But even this is a deranged bunny trail. Not even opium-crazed 'insurgents' would expect to successfully fish money out of a Bradley.

[Burkeman1]

Yes. I am just spit balling ideas. I just thought about that as well. Fire an RPG round into a Bradley with money? What is going to burn first? The money. I think my theory just went out the window.

[Gumption]

Even without considering monetary value involved the propaganda value of the robbery would be immense. Then think about the havoc it would reap on the local economy with all that extra money floating around.

[templar]

Have we become too humane and respectful of civilians in how we wage war? These people don't know they've been beaten.

IMO, The problem is that we can't do too much that turns the citizens against us. It's not so much that they'll take up arms against us en masse (although a certain percentage of them will) if we hurt 'em too much: It's more that they will become sympathetic to the resistance (or whatever you want to call them) and both provide them varying degrees of aid and fail to warn us of impending attacks. Why didn't any of the locals warn us about this attack? With as many people involved as we are being told, it would be hard for them to go unnoticed. With warning we could have ambushed them first.

[Burkeman1]

Perhaps it was a mixture of both? Greed and Fedeyeen. Attack a convoy loaded with money. Maybe even get lucky and score a few bags of greenbacks (or whatever color Dinars are) that don't get burned up or destroyed during the assualt?

[Gumption]

Either way, I agree that the money was the purpose of the upgraded nature of the ambush.

[txhurl]

I'm mulling over at least five bunny trails.. this whole scenario is just bizarre, and I'm about to ascribe it to psyops.

[Burkeman1]

As to this body count issue. Fog of war is my answer. This was the first mini medium sustained fire fight in a long time in Iraq (which is good news). Maybe new troopers got exicted in the heat of the battle and thought the shell they fired at a position took out more people more than it did? Maybe a helicopter pilot thought he straffed or rocketed a position that was squad strength but was only two guys? Maybe they are totally correct and the enemy carried off most of their dead and wounded? The Dead to wounded estimate might support that. We reported 46 to 54 Dead with 18 wounded. There would have been three times that number wounded to dead as is usual in combat situations. That might lead one to believe that the insurgents carried of their wounded first rather than the dead. But if they were able to carry off so many dead and wounded it would mean a force of about 300 at least. I can't see that. Something is wrong here.

[Burkeman1]

I think your right. Something is wrong here. But it is usually best to wait a few days. First reports of things are almost always wrong. I am sure some of the facts that we are basing our speculation on are wrong as so often happens in war.

[tet68]

Planted transmitters?!? Yeah, when the US soldiers don't dare even stop to search the dead or actually count them (yes, all the numbers are after-battle "estimates"), how do you expect them to get out and plant transmitters on the bodies?

The could have at least left a welcoming handgranate under a body.

So little time, so much to do.

[Little Bill]

I rememeber the spray and pray days, blood trails everywhere, not a stiff to be found. I was rather supprised to find out that we killed 1.7 million of our oriential brethern, according to our NVA pals, strange times

I posted this on the other thread, when you get some action you shoot back until the tracers go away, a line grunt is the worse person to do an after action, you know little beyond a couple of yards to your left and right.

[Becki]

"They are the most malicious people. They are not educated, they are barbarians. They said they would bring us democracy but they scare women and children. We will resist them to the depth of our soul," said Rashid Jasem, 38, a hardware shop owner, whose store was peppered with bullet holes.

Now you know why his store was "peppered with bullet holes." Perhaps they should have destroyed a fourth building used by insurgents.

Becki

[ASOC]

You gotta wonder
When will they make a 120mm beehive round?

[montag813]

Iraqis insist that eight civilians were killed by reckless US fire

CRY ME A RIVER!!!

[Burkeman1]

Are you trying to prove the point of the man you quoted in your post?

American troops do not target civilians! If we kill a civilian by mistake in a fire fight we try to make ammends through monetary compensation and heartfelf apologies.

We may occupy Iraq. But there is a huge difference between our occupation of countries and that of say Germany, Soviet Russia, and even Great Britain.

We are there to do good. We are not in Iraq for our benefit. But for theirs.

I think such a plan is stupid and a Neocon fantasy- but while our troops are in Iraq they will conduct themselves as moral Americans.

Those who say we should "MOAB" entire cities, advocate torture of suspects, the killing of entire villages, are the real enemies of our troops on FR. And you don't have to search hard to find such posts unfortunately on this site nowadays.

[templar]

When will they make a 120mm beehive round?

I don't know if they still do, but they used to make a beehive for a 105 recoilless ( I think I'm rememering the calibre correctly, one of those big cannon jobs mounted on the back of a jeep). Saw one used against some NVA once. No return fire.

[Becki]

Are you trying to prove the point of the man you quoted in your post?

Of course not. And I have never been one to say MOAB the whole place. I don't think that way.

That said, the Pentegon reports of the action did state that they had destroyed three buildings being used by the insurgents. By the man's own words, he certainly sounds like one to me.

Becki

[Burkeman1]

No. You don't understand insurgent tactics. Maybe they took over the shop next to his and used it as a bunker or concealed firing position? What was the shopowner to do? Fight them when they came in? He gets shelled and fired upon and his livelhood is gone? What would you have done? We have taken their guns away remember! Maybe someone was killed by such an attack by our troops by mistake- a son, daughter, wife, grandparent, husband? They have vendetta. It isn't political or even really against the USA as a people or country but a cultural thing.

[mikegi]

Something is wrong here. But it is usually best to wait a few days. First reports of things are almost always wrong. I am sure some of the facts that we are basing our speculation on are wrong as so often happens in war.

Yep, something is wrong here. It's your assumption that there aren't a bunch of dead Iraqis because the Iraqis say there aren't any. Do you expect the people in this openly pro-Saddam town to admit to a huge defeat??? Don't you think it's a teensy tiny bit suspicious that the hospital's doctor reported that "mainly civilians" were killed? Who was firing the AK-47s and RPGs? They all got away?

I guess you simply toss aside the quotes from our own soldiers that the enemy "had the training to stand and fight". Our guys engaged them at close range, close enough to see hits. Are our soldiers in on this con job?