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Ferocious Gun Battle That Left No Bodies
The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 12-2-2003 | Jack Fairweather

Posted on 12/01/2003 4:56:31 PM PST by blam

Ferocious gun battle that left no bodies

(Filed: 02/12/2003)

Americans say 54 attackers died in the fiercest engagement since the war ended while Iraqis insist that eight civilians were killed by reckless US fire, writes Jack Fairweather

Wrecked cars and bullet-riddled shopfronts testified to the battle. But in the streets of Samarra yesterday there was little evidence of what the Americans described as the biggest engagement since the end of the Iraqi war.

Burned out cars following the fighting in Samarra, north of Baghdad

US forces insisted they had killed 54 Iraqi attackers after two of their armoured convoys came under co-ordinated attack while delivering new currency to local banks on Sunday. But local people and a hospital doctor reported only eight dead, who they insisted were mainly civilians, including an Iranian pilgrim.

It was impossible to reconcile the two versions of the battle. The US military acknowledged that the death toll was estimated - rather than confirmed - on the debriefings of soldiers and no bodies had been collected.

The firefight began at 1.20pm on Sunday when the convoys entered the city from separate locations carrying money for a currency exchange programme. Following a previous withdrawal agreement by US forces, they were the first coalition vehicles to enter the city centre in over a week.

Following recent attacks, the convoy's jeeps and humvees were escorted by tanks and armoured personnel carriers.

Their caution proved well-founded. One convoy was hit by a roadside bomb shortly after entering the town, Iraqi witnesses said, although it went on to the bank.

At 1.30pm, soldiers began delivering three billion Iraqi dinars (more than £100,000) of new currency to the Rafidain bank in the town centre. A cordon of tanks and soldiers on rooftops were on alert.

As both convoys prepared to leave, the Fedayeen, a militia formed by Saddam Hussein, attacked with rocket-propelled grenades, mortar and small arms fire from other rooftops.

At the second bank on the edge of the commercial district, insurgents leapt from cover firing rockets, a witness said. A spokesman for the 4th Infantry Division said: "American soldiers were struck by heavy and sustained fire from separate locations. US soldiers returned fire and the attackers were overwhelmed."

The attacks lasted less than 20 minutes, with troops rapidly supported by four Apache attack helicopters. The US military said that two teams of up to 30 fedayeen were involved.

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, a US military spokesman, said one person was detained.

Asked about the bodies of the 54 militants said to have been killed, he said: "I would suspect that the enemy would have carried them away and brought them back to where their initial base was."

Though the attack was repulsed, US officers said it marked a new stage in the insurgency, showing greater levels of co-ordination.

Captain Andy Deponai, whose tank was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG), said: "Up to now you've seen a progression. Initially, it was hit and run, single RPG shots on patrols, then they started doing volley fire, multiple RPG ambushes, and now this is the first well co-ordinated one.

"Here it seems they had the training to stand and fight."

On the streets of Samarra yesterday shoppers were out in force and the US military had retreated again. At the Rafidain bank, the firefight had left several wrecked cars, a smattering of bullet holes in shopfronts and one building damaged by small arms fire.

Down a narrow side alley facing the bank stood three wrecked cars, two struck by tank rounds, the third dotted with bullet holes. There was no obvious sign that anyone had been in the vehicles.

Omar Mehdi, a 27-year-old teacher who lives in the street, said he had parked the car there 30 minutes before the attack.

His father forlornly held up the burnt cinders of a copy of the Koran that had been on the dashboard of the car. "No one was killed in the car, thank God," he said.

Outside the mosque that stands at one end of the street, a tank round had landed on a Mitsubishi car. According to Iraqis an Iranian pilgrim and two other people were killed.

"We heard the shooting and everyone began running, there was a terrible traffic jam and people were desperately trying to get out of their cars to escape," said one local shopkeeper.

At the scene of the second attack, a clothes shop two hundred yards away had been burnt out, although no one was injured. Two nearby buildings had also been targeted by American tank gunners.

The attacks had left an ugly mood in the town, where locals were unanimous in condemning indiscriminate firing by the Americans.

"They are the most malicious people. They are not educated, they are barbarians. They said they would bring us democracy but they scare women and children. We will resist them to the depth of our soul," said Rashid Jasem, 38, a hardware shop owner, whose store was peppered with bullet holes.

Iraqi witnesses claimed that tanks fired a round at workers from a drug factory as they left work at 2.00pm. One woman was killed and 18 injured. A crater from the shell and a pool of blood remained nearby.

They said four cars were also hit in the parking area of the hospital and a nearby mosque was shelled, killing two. Dr Faleh Hassan Asamara, on duty at the hospital, said: "The Americans have done a lot of shooting but I don't think the number of dead they claimed were killed."


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: battle; bodies; ferocious; gun; iraq; no; samarra; samarraattack
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To: FreedomPoster
Rather than being really really mean we should do something really really nice for the Iraqi people. Like say ... send all the women, children and old people on paid vacations to Europe for a few weeks.
21 posted on 12/01/2003 5:28:39 PM PST by Gumption
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To: Archangelsk
Not leaving your dead and wounded on the battlefield is a cornerstone of military professionalism.

Perhaps. But there was once a day when military professionalism was measured by the neat and tidy rows of British soldiers firing their muskets against an unprofessional American army who hid in the trees and hills.
22 posted on 12/01/2003 5:29:38 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: 11th_VA
Planted transmitters?!? Yeah, when the US soldiers don't dare even stop to search the dead or actually count them (yes, all the numbers are after-battle "estimates"), how do you expect them to get out and plant transmitters on the bodies?
23 posted on 12/01/2003 5:32:01 PM PST by clamboat
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To: 11th_VA
That would be a great idea!
24 posted on 12/01/2003 5:36:50 PM PST by ItisaReligionofPeace (I'm from the government and I'm here to help.)
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To: blam
Ferocious Gun Battle That Left No Bodies

Is this like the French book about the 9/11 plane that hit the Pentagon but left no wreckage?

-PJ

25 posted on 12/01/2003 5:38:05 PM PST by Political Junkie Too (It's not safe yet to vote Democrat.)
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To: clamboat
Um, lead-coated transmitters. Chewy on the outside, beepy in the inside.
26 posted on 12/01/2003 5:38:35 PM PST by txhurl (MOABs now.)
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To: FreedomPoster
They [the Americans] have to respect our feelings and traditions and customs,

Says who? The Americans do it because they are nice, not because they must.

27 posted on 12/01/2003 5:43:57 PM PST by glorgau
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To: blam
Another thread on this subject:

Mystery Shrouds Whereabouts Of Bodies Of 54 Insurgents Said Killed By US

28 posted on 12/01/2003 5:47:32 PM PST by blam
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To: txflake
"Iraqis in Samarra told a different story. Some of their accounts were easily disprovable but there was consensus that the American troops fired randomly at times, and that there were no uniformed Iraqi fighters in their midst. Several detailed descriptions from Iraqis confirmed that guerrillas were also firing on the Americans, and that there were prolonged fire fights."

so according to all the reports, there was no bodies, people did shoot at us, we fired back, everyone can account for 8 people. eh
29 posted on 12/01/2003 5:48:32 PM PST by Pikamax
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To: BikerNYC
Different, bygone era. We have the most professional armed force on the block and we don't leave our dead and wounded on the battlefield. My guess is that those phantom Iraqi divisions that we couldn't find are beginning to reappear.
30 posted on 12/01/2003 5:51:51 PM PST by Archangelsk (Agent Smith : Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability.)
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To: blam
Captain Andy Deponai, whose tank was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG), said:

Sure sounds like women and children to me!!!!

31 posted on 12/01/2003 5:52:03 PM PST by HoustonCurmudgeon (PEACE - Through Superior Firepower)
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To: blam
Just a side issue here (and I am sure someone else has mentioned it on another thread)- but could this attack not have been by insurgents but by well organized criminals trying to get the dinars the troops were delivering? This was an atypical attack for the insurgents. Not their usual fire a mortar round or two and run. Perhaps the motivator of greed was the driving force behind this attack? Kind of a reverse "Kelly's Hereos" scenerio.
32 posted on 12/01/2003 5:58:16 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
I think I heard that all dinars will be worthless as of tomorrow or something.
33 posted on 12/01/2003 6:03:35 PM PST by Gumption
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To: COBOL2Java
The Telegraph is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who also owns Fox News.
34 posted on 12/01/2003 6:05:28 PM PST by Symblized
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To: Burkeman1
I'm sorry ... we had the new dinars in the convoy. My bad.
35 posted on 12/01/2003 6:05:52 PM PST by Gumption
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To: Burkeman1
Maybe we alerted the Iraqi cops that Wells Fargo was en route.

To see if they'd leak it to the robbers.

36 posted on 12/01/2003 6:06:21 PM PST by txhurl (MOABs now.)
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To: blam
What is wrong with these idiots? Or could it be they thik we are this dumb and gullible? The Musilm relgion requires that a body be in the ground by sundown.

I'll kick in a few pennies to buy these dorks a movie on VHS called "Rules of Engagement" starring Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L. Jackson, it covers in depth the way bodies and guns vanish in shootouts involving peaceful Muslims.
37 posted on 12/01/2003 6:06:30 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Gumption
I just find it a little suspicious that the first coordinated and sustained attack from these "insugents" in months was against a convoy loaded with money. If the reports of this fire fight are accurate- the attackers had mustered 70 to 100 men for this ambush. The insurgents thus far have not been able to muster anything like those numbers for such a large and sustained fire fight. But a criminal gang could and could do so without rousing suspicion or be picked up by our intel. I think we would have seen smaller engagements and incremental increases in attacks by the insurgents. This seems like too big of a leap for them. Just my two cents worth. I would like to know how much money the troops were delivering to see if it would be worth it for a large gang of criminals to risk such a large "armed robbery" attempt.
38 posted on 12/01/2003 6:15:13 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: IGOTMINE
"Estimated" number of KIA. This smacks of the Vietnam Combat Math of "We fired 10,000 rounds, therefore we must have killed 54 of the enemy." Granted this was in the Guardian, but unsettling nonetheless. Show the bodies.

That was my first thought as well. In two instances I am personaly familiar with a dead water buffalo was reported as three enemy dead (the cow was all that was found, with blood everywhere) and one of ours dead was all that was reported when I personally saw five that had to be dead. It seems that when the truth doesn't look the way we want it to, it sometimes gets interpreted till it does. Nobody's fault really, it's just sorta the way it works.

39 posted on 12/01/2003 6:17:10 PM PST by templar
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To: txflake
US forces in Iraq have to rely on thousands of Iraqis who work for them in thousands of different tasks. Infiltration is most likely widespread as it always is in any occupation scenerio. I would imagine the insurgents have about the same level of intel on our movements and plans as we do on them.
40 posted on 12/01/2003 6:19:41 PM PST by Burkeman1
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