Gun ban at church? Nope

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 11/30/03 | Dan Harrie

[Holly_P]

As far as the state of Utah is concerned, 50,000-plus residents with concealed-carry permits can legally pack guns into any church.

That might come as a surprise to some of the state's religious leaders.

Earlier this year the Legislature passed, and then-Gov. Mike Leavitt signed, an amendment to the concealed-carry law allowing religious organizations to prohibit firearms inside houses of worship. The change was added to legislation clarifying that those with concealed-carry permits can be legally armed inside public schools.

The church gun-ban provision can be invoked by clergy pronouncing the policy over the pulpit or in a newsletter or publishing it in a general-circulation newspaper. Previously, churches were required to post signs to exercise their right to prohibit weapons.

Under the new law, however, clergy have to do more than just notify members of the congregation of a gun ban. They also have to register with the state Bureau of Criminal Identification (BCI). The state agency then must post on its Web site a list of churches, synagogues and other houses of worship barring guns.

BCI has created the required list on its Web site, http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFChurch.html, but it does not contain the name of a single religious organization. Instead, it carries the explanation: "No churches have notified BCI of their intent to prohibit firearms on their premises."

Joyce Carter, BCI firearms section chief, says a church gun ban is invalid unless the state has been notified as required by the statute.

"To me, that means the permit holders can carry in the church unless [the gun owners] have agreed not to carry," Carter said in a Tribune interview. "That would be my interpretation of the law."

Sen. Mike Waddoups, R-Taylorsville, sponsored the amendment. He agrees that state notification is required for the law to kick in.

"Probably some of them don't know about it. That's probably part of the reason," no churches have registered a gun ban, said the lawmaker. "The other reason is I think it's not a big issue in some of their minds. But I think as soon as there is an incident, then it will become an issue."

Waddoups said any church posting "no gun" signs is complying with the spirit, although not the letter of the law. He said he believed a gun ban should be legally recognized in such cases.

The Episcopal Diocese of Utah was one of the few faiths that posted signs banning guns under the old law and has been active in seeking legal recognition of its legal right to impose such restrictions.

"It would be inaccurate to interpret the lack of registration [with the state] as indifference on the part of churches which have been so adamant" in opposition to guns in houses of worship, said Dan Webster, diocese spokesman. "What it shows is that churches have been gearing up [for the holidays] and doing their regular work."

The Episcopal Diocese is planning to register its gun ban with the state, he said.

Dee Rowland, spokeswoman for the Catholic Diocese of Utah, said the requirement of state registration is offensive.

"We haven't dealt with it because we feel like it is common sense that one wouldn't bring a weapon to church," said Rowland. "That we have to take an action to invoke that is repulsive to me."

Utah's predominant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints endorsed the amendment during the 2003 legislative session, said Waddoups and others familiar with the legislation.

The LDS Church is "evidently not" interested in invoking the legal prohibition, said Waddoups, "otherwise they'd be posted on the BCI Web site."

Top Mormon leaders several years ago issued a formal statement declaring that guns are not appropriate in houses of worship, although there is no mention of the issue in the handbook used by bishops of the faith.

Spokesman Dale Bills said Friday he had no immediate explanation of why the LDS Church has not invoked provisions of the law.

Gun-rights activist W. Clark Aposhian worked with LDS Church lobbyists in drafting the legislation, and expressed surprise that the denomination has taken no steps to legally trigger its own gun ban.

"Perhaps they have received enough input that they've decided this is an issue for another day," said Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Self-Defense Instructors Network. "Maybe they just don't see the need for it right now."

Aposhian disagrees with the notion that the state's registration requirement is offensive. "Otherwise, you have the government telling the church what it can or cannot do in its building. I don't like the government involved in religion." dharrie@sltrib.com

[Blood of Tyrants]

Luke 22:36

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

[Eala]

"We haven't dealt with it because we feel like it is common sense that one wouldn't bring a weapon to church," said Rowland.

LOL. I not only brought one to church, I wore it with the rector's knowledge while assisting him in the sanctuary today.

Of course it was only the Highland "sgian dubh," the black stocking knife traditionally worn with the kilt (which I wore this St. Andrew's Day), even though post-9/11 I can no longer board a plane with it.

[George from New England]

How would your congregation like it if you were the only (or the few) churches listed on the state's registry for a gun prohibition. Open invitation to criminals or terrorists I'd think.

[patton]

My forefathers were required to take their weapons to church - Eudo de la Zouche, for instance, on the eve of his knighthood, stood prayer vigil over his weapons throughout the night.

In Virginia, one was required to bring a rifle to church, to defend it, and for practice after.

[BudgieRamone]

"We haven't dealt with it because we feel like it is common sense that one wouldn't bring a weapon to church," said Rowland.


I am Catholic, I carry a concealed pistol to church. What better place for a terrorist to make a statement on the "crusaders" than by attacking a Chritian house of worship.

We are temples of the Lord and are required to defend the sanctity of the temple (ourselves and others). While Martyrdom is noble, some people don't neccessarily want to be martyrs.

I will continue to carry in the Lord's house, its between Him and me, and I would like to believe, perhaps mistakenly--perhaps not, that he doesn't mind a few armed members in his flock.

[Neil E. Wright]

Look officer, If I wanted to pushed around by someone in a paramilitary uniform, I'd PAY for it

LOL ... you ARE paying for it, whether you WANT to or not!

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms
REPORT
of the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION
of the
UNITED STATES SENATE
NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS
Second Session
February 1982

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

Click here to read the report BY THE SENATE that finds an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT to keep and bear arms

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner."

---

±

"The Era of Osama lasted about an hour, from the time the first plane hit the tower to the moment the General Militia of Flight 93 reported for duty."
Toward FREEDOM

[ALASKA]

With the Jihadis targeting infidels, I think it might be a good idea for churches to hand out guns before every service. Same with planes. I think you should have to eat a slice of bacon and take a gun before boarding any commercial flight.

[Mini-14]

Joyce Carter is great. BCI had misprinted my address on my license, and Joyce get the problem fixed within about a week.

[ExSoldier]

Several years ago, wasn't there a "lone gunman" (whacko) shooting inside a Protestant Church? predictably, the immediate call was to ban guns in churches. Duh.

I am a fundamentalist Prysbertarian (dang I hate spelling that). In the 1960's there was a splinter in the Church over politics. The group that wanted to just follow the word of God, split off and formed Prysberterian Church in America (PCA) the mother church Prysbertian Church USA became more and more radical and politically involved....it is now self destructing over the gay issues. The issue which caused the initial split for us? GUN CONTROL. Everytime I'm in church and I hear any minister start that crap, I take him to task. And if I feel the need, I carry in church. I know God understands.

[joesnuffy]

Since the govt. is warning us daily of new Islamic terrorist threats....
seem that Christian churches would make good targets come Sunday morning services.....
It would be smart imo for pastors and the elders to encourage members who are qualified
to pack in church...

[clee1]

Me, my wife, and my sidearm go to Church most Sundays. Nobody knows it but us and the Lord.

I carry my pistol almost everywhere. It is concealed - and will never be displayed unless the situation requires it.

You never need a gun until you REALLY need a gun.

[Inyo-Mono]

In Virginia, one was required to bring a rifle to church, to defend it, and for practice after.

You are correct. My four times great-grandfather was a preacher on the frontier of what is now West Virginia. A visitor to his church in 1794 wrote: "Here I saw men coming to meeting with their rifles on their shoulders, guarding their families, then setting their guns in a corner of the house till after meeting..."

[patton]

It was the law, in VA. One was compelled to bring a firearm to church.

[George from New England]

"I am Catholic, I carry a concealed pistol to church."

You're not alone.