Bush says Muslims and Christians Worship Same God

CNN | 11/20/03

[kkindt]

Muslims do not believe Jesus Christ is God. Do you?

If you believe Jesus Christ is God?

[milan]

You just nulled any arguement you tried to make by disregarding my questioning of your point of view. Have a nice day yourself.

[milan]

It's not about right and wrong.

It is about right and wrong. There is no grey area. Black or white.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Thanks for the Jewish perspective.

Just trying to show, that while Christains can complain about what Muslims have done to the Judeao-Christian G-d, that the Jews might see Christains as having corrupted the Judaic G-d.

[milan]

I believe she was 6 when he took her as his wife and then 9 when he just took her.

That may be accurate...as I said, it was a Muslem who argued the pint with me.

[A. Pole]

It is about right and wrong. There is no grey area. Black or white.

Or I would say that grey is a mixture of black and white. You need to have black and white first in order to get shades of gray.

[Sabertooth]

If I am wrong, then so be it.

Fair enough. But if you are wrong about Islam, and it's certainly an open question, then it's also an open question as to whether or not President Bush is wrong about Islam, at the very least. Therefore, the question asked of him today at the press conference in the UK is certainly fair game.

But the Bible is a WHOLE document which gives the history of God and Christ. If you can say that accepting Christ's sacrifice is enough, then why can't Muslims also choose which parts of the Koran to believe and which parts to dismiss?

Because it's not on the authority of Christians that we recognize that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient, it's intrinsic to the Gospel. The revelation of the New Testament is not a dismissal of the Old Testament, but a completion of it.

Jews don't believe Christ is the son of God. Are they wrong also?

Yes, in their understanding of the Jesus the Messiah. However, Jews do believe in the same God as do Christians. Jews follow the Old Testament which is about ⁵/₆ of the Bible as a whole. As a Christians, we understand that the Jews follow a true, though incomplete revelation.

Muslims follow a heresy.

Yes, and??? Written as they interpret it. Like the Bible, the Koran has been written and interpreted differently over thousands of years. If it meant the same to all Muslims, then you would see all Muslims being terrorists.

No, the Bible is not like the Koran in this way. There are no "Satanic Verses" of the Bible that had to be excised. Another poster recommended "Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by Josh McDowell. While I haven't read it myself, I'm familiar with McDowell, and with the scholarship on which he relies. Folks can choose to believe or disbelieve the Bible, but it's literary integrity is not in serious question, either for the Old or New Testaments.

The "Jesus Seminar" and German Criticism are based entirely on specualtive and unfounded literary theory. There is not a shred of archaeological or documentary evidence to support their conclusions.

If one would go by what you just said, then there can be only one true religion based on the Bible. So what is it? Christianity? Judism? Factions of Christianity??? Every single one of them believe something different. Which one is right? And which Bible version is right? King James, NIV?

This is a false premise which leads to much schism.

Christians are saved by grace through faith and salvation. Doctrinal differences are exactly that, and we are saved by faith, not by doctrine.

A small (and controversial) minority of Jews operate under the covenant of grace. Most still operate under the old covenant of works. The final judgement of their souls I leave to God; it's a mystery to me. I do know that on Judgement Day, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

Why not ask the peaceful Muslims here in the US?

Why would I, when they have dispensation to lie to me? I watch their actions, I listen to what they say and don't say, I observe the history of Islam in every nation where their numbers have placed them in a majority. Their track record of pluralism is dismal.

What if modern/moderate Muslims believe the militants are wrong and are heretics to Islam? Isn't it entirely possible that the radical element of Islam is causing a secular movement within Islam?

Sure. There's a quip I've read: "The only good Muslim is a bad Muslim."

The underlying problem, however, rests with the nature of Mohammed. He was a prophet of jihad and terror.

In religions we observe the periodic phenomenon of revival, and returns to fundamentals. The fundament of Islam is Mohammed. How can terror and jihad be extricated from Islam without also removing Mohammed?

Yet how can Islam remain Islam without Mohammed?

[Alamo-Girl]

Er, if I may interject something into your discussion on "perfectionism" at 350 and 359. I've never heard it called an "ism" and I'm generally against such monikers – but I am a Southern Baptist and thus would like to respond to this statement:

BTW I had heard - if my recollection is correct - that some Baptists subscribe to a doctrine of perfectionism - that at some point in life it is possible to become perfect. Very incorrect and dangerous teaching.

I suspect this is just a simple misunderstanding, so please allow me to clarify a few points and see if that is the case.

The command to be perfect comes from Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. - Matthew 5:44-48

We know that nobody can say or do or think perfect things. That is the point of the Law as Paul explains exhaustively in Romans chapters 1-8. If we could, then Christ died for nothing.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:21 Nevertheless, we are commanded to be perfect. This seemingly impossible command – which we cannot mortally obey by watching what we can say or do or think – can and is achieved by where we choose to live:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. - John 15:4-8

IOW, when we abide in Him (which is to say utterly submit to His will in absolute love) - He manifests His own perfection through us. We become the conduit of Him, like a branch on a vine.

For more background to this, you might wish to check out my article on What is [a Christian] man? I'd love to hear your comments!

[Wait4Truth]

Sheesh is right. You may as well leave this thread because the die has been cast. Bush is not a Christian, Bush is evil, Bush is Satan and none of these people will ever vote for him again. Got it? I'm outta here!

[normy]

Jesus is not God, he is the som of God.

[A. Pole]

Just trying to show, that while Christains can complain about what Muslims have done to the Judeao-Christian G-d, that the Jews might see Christains as having corrupted the Judaic G-d.

There is a key difference - the split between later Talmudic Judaism and later Christianity happened among Jews. Some of them recognised Jesus as awaited Mesiah/Christ and others decided to wait for a different one. Both branches came from the same root, share common traditions and quarrels.

Islam came from outside, rejected Jewish/Christian scriptures as distorted to replace them with Koran. Koran was a one time writting by one person, while the books of Bible were written over many generations by many people in various locations.

[rintense]

Then why are they so quiet about it?

Well, I've seen some of the more prominent Muslims on FNC saying they distance themselves from the radicals. Problem is, I don't think the media wants to hear from these folks, nor give them a platform. I know that my Muslim friends work closely with Jews and Christians to answer questions in area places of worship.

Why aren't there any great marches against radical Islam like the great marches celebrating 9/11?

Did that happen here in the states? As for the foolish Palestinians, Iraqis, etc. who did celebrate, I also look at the many who mounred, including some Palestinians, Jordanians, Iranians, etc.

[rintense]

I can appreciate what you've said. But, for me, it is important to know the individual as part of a religion, rather than to judge the individual by their religion- or those who make said religion even worse. I look for the good in all people (which is an amazing change from my early 20s). Why did I change? I suspect my growing faith in Christ and God. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

[MayflowerMadam]

"Baptists try to ignore the fire and brimstone."

HUH? As a Baptist P.K., I cut my teeth on Dad's hellfire and brimstone sermons. You couldn't be more wrong.

[truthandlife]

Is there any place to watch this interview now? Or is there a transcript?

Look at #234 and you will sadly see the transcript. In fact, when Bush said this, he said it with confidence. I know people are getting on me about this one but I wake up in my Salt Lake City hotel and turn on CNN and the first thing I hear was this reporters question and then the answer. It was unbelieveable!!!!

[carton253]

Thank you... I can't seem to get that point across to some others... Have a great day!

[carton253]

Yes, I know you are being sarcastic. LOL!

Not only am I bordering on treason, but to some, I'm not a very good Christian (if I'm one at all)...

After reading threads like these, do you blame the President for not answering such questions. I don't.

[truthandlife]

If anyone has a link to his exact quote, I would be interested in seeing it.

Look at #234 and you will sadly see the transcript. In fact, when Bush said this, he said it with confidence. I know people are getting on me about this one but I wake up in my Salt Lake City hotel and turn on CNN and the first thing I hear was this reporters question and then the answer. It was unbelieveable!!!!

[RightWhale]

While many lay Christians and most Musselmen do not believe they worship the same God, many Christian clergy believe they do after all worship the same God.