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To: Terriergal; Prodigal Son
Er, if I may interject something into your discussion on "perfectionism" at 350 and 359. I've never heard it called an "ism" and I'm generally against such monikers – but I am a Southern Baptist and thus would like to respond to this statement:

BTW I had heard - if my recollection is correct - that some Baptists subscribe to a doctrine of perfectionism - that at some point in life it is possible to become perfect. Very incorrect and dangerous teaching.

I suspect this is just a simple misunderstanding, so please allow me to clarify a few points and see if that is the case.

The command to be perfect comes from Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. - Matthew 5:44-48

We know that nobody can say or do or think perfect things. That is the point of the Law as Paul explains exhaustively in Romans chapters 1-8. If we could, then Christ died for nothing.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:21 Nevertheless, we are commanded to be perfect. This seemingly impossible command – which we cannot mortally obey by watching what we can say or do or think – can and is achieved by where we choose to live:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. - John 15:4-8

IOW, when we abide in Him (which is to say utterly submit to His will in absolute love) - He manifests His own perfection through us. We become the conduit of Him, like a branch on a vine.

For more background to this, you might wish to check out my article on What is [a Christian] man? I'd love to hear your comments!

488 posted on 11/20/2003 11:01:26 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Prodigal Son
I just found a site which ascribed the doctrine of perfectionism to Methodists. Not sure. My dad was raised Baptist and he had huge guilt problems which he tried to foist upon us (probably mostly unconsciously). His parents were incredibly strict and he struggled with control issues too. I was the last kid to come along (when he was 58!) and I had it the easiest.

I'm not saying Baptists have any monopoly on this tendency toward legalism. It's prevalent all over the church. If Prodigal Son grew up in a church where it was rampant, that might explain some things. But regardless, some *people* have that tendency within themselves that they struggle with.
514 posted on 11/20/2003 11:56:32 AM PST by Terriergal (Psalm 11: 3 "When the foundations are being destroyed, what can the righteous do?")
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To: Alamo-Girl
You are beautiful.
687 posted on 12/01/2003 8:17:11 AM PST by First_Salute (God save our democratic-republican government, from a government by judiciary.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Terriergal; Prodigal Son
You might also try this article that I posted some time ago on the very subject. (From the Methodist point-of-view.)
694 posted on 12/01/2003 12:11:09 PM PST by The Grammarian
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