U.S. (Army Black Hawk) helicopter crashes in Iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- An Army Black Hawk helicopter crashed Friday near the north-central city of Tikrit, the U.S. military said. The crash came a day after Poland suffered its first combat death since the aftermath of World War II and two American soldiers died in attacks near Baghdad and along the Syrian border.

It was not known whether the Black Hawk helicopter went down due to mechanical failure or hostile fire.

The aircraft went down about 9:40 a.m. on a riverbank along the Tigris River about a half mile from the U.S. base in Saddam Hussein's former palace. The military said it did not know how many people were aboard.

White smoke was seen rising from the wreckage and three other choppers were hovering overhead.

"We don't know if it was a mechanical failure or hostile fire," Maj. Jossyln Aberle, spokeswoman for the 4th Infantry Division, said.

On Sunday, a U.S. Army Chinook helicopter was shot down near Fallujah, killing 16 people and injuring 26.

On Oct, 25, a Black Hawk was shot down near Tikrit and one crew member was injured.

Also Friday, a U.S. convoy was ambushed with rocket-propelled grenades and small-arms fire, wounding at least five soldiers in the northern city of Mosul, 250 miles north of Baghdad.

After the clash, troops blocked off the section of town where the fighting had occurred. Witnesses said that two vehicles were left burning and that others were damaged.

A downtown hotel used as a military barracks in Mosul, Iraq's third-largest city that until recently was considered safe from guerrilla strikes, was attacked late Thursday with rocket-propelled grenades, but no damage or casualties occurred, the military said.

In al-Assad, a windblown desert base 150 miles northwest of Baghdad, hundreds of soldiers, some wearing ceremonial spurs and black regimental hats, on Thursday remembered the comrades killed last weekend when their helicopter was shot down in the deadliest single attack against U.S. forces since the Iraq war began March 20.

The Polish major was wounded when insurgents attacked a convoy of 16 Polish soldiers returning from a promotion ceremony for Iraqi civilian defense trainees near Baghdad. Maj. Hieronim Kupczyk, 44, died at a military hospital in Karbala, the Polish Defense Ministry said.

None of the other Polish soldiers was killed or wounded, according to Polish Defense Minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski.

"This tragic event proves that the situation in Iraq is getting complicated," Szmajdzinski told reporters in Warsaw. "The level of professionalism of the terrorists is increasing."

Elsewhere, one U.S. soldier from the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment was killed Thursday when his truck hit a land mine near the Husaybah border crossing point with Syria nearly 200 miles northwest of Baghdad, the military said.

A paratrooper from the 82nd Airborne Division was killed and two others were wounded when their patrol came under rocket-propelled grenade and small arms fire near Mahmudiyah, 15 miles south of Baghdad late Wednesday, the military said.

In Washington on Thursday, Bush signed an $87.5 billion package approved by Congress for Iraq and Afghanistan, calling the money a financial commitment by the United States to the global war to defeat terrorism.

"With this act of Congress, no enemy or friend can doubt that America has the resources and the will to see this war through to victory," Bush said at a White House ceremony.

At al-Assad, U.S. troops honored their colleagues killed Sunday when insurgents shot down a Chinook helicopter. Most of the soldiers were headed to home leave in the United States and elsewhere. Another of the wounded soldiers died in a hospital in Germany Thursday, bringing the Chinook death toll to 16.

The official count of the wounded had been 21 before the latest death. However, the U.S. Defense Department said in a statement later Thursday that 26 soldiers were recovering from their wounds. The statement did not elaborate.

The helicopter was shot down near Fallujah, one of the centers of Iraqi resistance about 40 miles west of Baghdad. On Wednesday, the 82nd Airborne Division said it captured two Iraqi army officers -- Lt. Gen. Khamis Saleh Ibrahim Al-Halbossi and Lt. Gen. Ibrahim Adwan Al-Alwani -- who were believed to have played a major role in attacks in the Fallujah area.

The deaths Thursday brought to 141 the number of U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq by hostile fire since President Bush declared an end to major combat May 1. A total of 114 U.S. soldiers were killed in action before Bush's declaration.

Meanwhile, the Pentagon announced plans to send 85,000 relief troops to Iraq early next year, part of a rotation plan that assumes Iraqis be able to assume more control and American troops in Iraq can be reduced from 131,600 today to 105,000 by May, senior officials said.

Concern over security mounted after a series of attacks around the start of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, which began here Oct. 27. Since then, insurgents have rocketed the Al-Rasheed Hotel, set off deadly car bombs in Baghdad, fired mortars at the coalition headquarters compound in Baghdad and shot down the Chinook.

The number of daily attacks on coalition forces dropped to 29 last week from a spike of 37 the week before, a U.S. military spokesman said Thursday.

However, the chief British representative here, Jeremy Greenstock, said coalition forces face a "rough winter" of attacks, The Times of London newspaper reported in Wednesday's edition.

Greenstock also said it would be difficult to defeat the insurgents without the sort of heavy-handed measures that would further alienate the Iraqi people, the newspaper said.

The Polish major was the first Polish soldier killed by hostile fire in more than a half century of post-World War II peacekeeping missions, including the Golan Heights, Lebanon, Haiti and the Balkans. More than 500,000 Polish soldiers died during World War II, and 20,000 more were killed in fighting along the eastern border that continued until 1947.

The United States, Britain and now Poland are the only coalition members to have suffered combat deaths in Iraq. One Dane was killed by friendly fire.

Poland has 2,400 soldiers in Iraq and are in charge of a large swath of south-central Iraq where about 9,500 soldiers of several nations help maintain security. Poland was among the strongest supporters of the U.S.-led war to remove Saddam Hussein, and 250 Polish special forces soldiers fought in the conflict.

The killing of the Polish major took place a few days before the planned visit of Polish Prime Minister Leszek Miller, who is due here as part of a Middle East tour.

Despite the growing risk to coalition forces, a senior Japanese official said in Baghdad that his country would honor its commitment to send peacekeepers to Iraq.

The Japanese plan to send a 150-member advance contingent to southern Iraq by the end of the year and 550 soldiers early next year to provide water, medical care and other services.

Need some new words to express fury at the enemy, and resolve. Thanks for the heads up. Weekends are becoming suspiciously dangerous for our troops, it seems.

Prayers going out for the families and loved ones, our troops all across the ME.

Black Hawk Crashes Near Tikrit, Killing Six Soldiers

Friday, November 07, 2003

TIKRIT, Iraq — A U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter (search) crashed near Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit (search) on Friday, killing all six soldiers aboard according to Central Command in Baghdad.

All those aboard were members of the 101st Airborne Division.

"Six soldiers were on board and all of them were killed," said Maj. Jossyln Aberle, a spokeswoman for the 4th Infantry Division based in Tikrit.

"We don't know if it was a mechanical failure or hostile fire," Aberle added.

However, an officer who asked not to be identified said it may have been hit by a rocket-propelled grenade. Reuters news service also reported that soldiers interviewed in Tikrit say the helicopter was probably shot down.

The aircraft went down about 9:40 a.m. on a riverbank along the Tigris River about a half mile from the U.S. base in Saddam Hussein's former palace. White smoke was seen rising from the wreckage and three other choppers were hovering overhead. ----

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102449,00.html

Watched a program years ago on *shock loading of individuals in helo crashes.
They dropped some Hueys' with data link on the dummies. the failure point on the spine to where bones crush..leg bones..hips.
Some solutions were forwarded...shock obsorber seats.
Have wondered myself..if an airbag type device mounted on the skirt or belly of a helo would not reduce the shock loading when the bird crashes. If it works in cars..at least it could minimze injury in regards to helo's.

Having some form of control when a helo drops is possible..but eventually they they just impact and the kinnetic energy starts fracturing things.

During the last half-year I was in Southeast Asia, I was detailed as a classified documents courier while recovering from some minor injuries, essentially a glorified special-delivery mailman. As a result, I rode military aircraft, including helocopters, a lot more than I liked, and had the experience of being a passenger during the crashes of two UH1 Hueys, a Southe Vietnamese H19 Kingbee, and a fixed-wing C7 Caribou, in varying degrees of seriousness. I was not real happy about being in any of the incidents, but any of the four could have been a whole lot worse. Anything that makes such rides a little safer is an improvement in my book, and if you care to offer any ideas toward that end, I'd be glad to consider them in the light of my own admittedly limited experience, but experience that did indeed make a lasting impression on me. We may not come up with anything new, but it can't hurt to try.

Some may comment that the bags would rupture from bullets or fragments...

So use many, smaller bags, fitted with *one way* inflation bags, and dual inflation lines for doing so in the event one of the lines is ruptured or parted. Or instead of expanding each bag via pressurized air or gas, use an electrically-fired cartridge like an auto airbag's, but in a much smaller size.

Hueys were bad because of the forward/low seating of the pilots, who generally got shattered ankles and knees, sometimes thighbones as well, from the forces transmitted into their lower extremities via the rudder pedals when the aircraft hit the ground. You'd have to come up with some way of eliminating that problem for the pilots, but the passengers aboard might at least enjoy such protection. Funny the radios aboard get such swell shock-mounts, with built-in springs and snubbers, but the personnel aboard don't.

I don't think I'd care to find out if a Blackhawk crash is as interesting as one in a Huey. One reason I always liked catching courier rides in the OH-6 *Loach* was that I'd never gone down in one, though I supopose the odds would have caught up with me eventually.

-archy-/-

Vietnam....were you out before Dewey Canyon II [Lam Son 719] in 1971?

Keith William Nolan has a great first hand account of how Dewey Canyon II went.[Into Laos ]

Principly..U.S. ferried ARVN into Laos..with a narrow roadnet from Rockpile to the highlands.

Amazing Bravery the Helo crews..and some Phantom pilots.

ARVN lost 50%..most of the firebases overrun...Gods..U.S. helo pilots were leaving with guys hanging on the skids while Charlie overran the hill tops.

Shot to pieces..the Helos..from Loaches to big Sky cranes.

I guess Charlie had the terrain mapped for the Opp...some ARVN puke gave them the opp.
SAMS..triple in quad blocks....like running a gaunlet.

6-8 Helos holed like swiss cheese...some down..and they have only just crossed into Laos.

Guys trapped in mangled wreckage..firing hand guns while charlie puts AK 47 rounds into them..

Next day..more opps..plus trying to get downed crews.

So you have walked away from 4 wrecks...thats amazing.
Make any vows..? : )

A relative went down in the Arctic on oil exploration.
Hit hard and crushed....he crawled out...lucky their flight plan was being followed,,and their wreck was on the track.
after..he refused to fly in helo's in the Arctic.

Shift..was reading about what damage an RPG round can do when it is a dud...
in this weeks time magazine..an account were a dud went in the back of a M113...and sheared off 3 soldiers legs.

I imagine an RPG dud would make a real mess of a Helo...

I'd really like to see the U.S. go to night opps..and do the door kick in thing..and ring the area...blow away anything moving that hasn't a strobe.

I think Rummsy going to do a big Bug Hunt on Sunni triangle when Styrkers..Marines and Special forces come up.
again..hope they tac this night..and really squeeze hard on them..and accept collateral damage,tears and Robert Fisk crying editorials.

Like to see them kick the door in on the Mosque too.

Iraq is hard..but not like Vietnam..where the guy Hunting you had some real talent and was persistent.

Vietnam....were you out before Dewey Canyon II [Lam Son 719] in 1971?

Yep, thankfully. I ETS'ed my first enlisted tour in May of '70. I had nearly two years off until I next heard the sound of hostilities after that, and I needed the rest. Keith William Nolan has a great first hand account of how Dewey Canyon II went.[Into Laos ]

Yep. I've read it, and was told by some folks I've known who REALLY knew what was going on in Laos- three and four tours worth- that his is a particularly good account of those days.

Principly..U.S. ferried ARVN into Laos..with a narrow roadnet from Rockpile to the highlands.

Amazing Bravery the Helo crews..and some Phantom pilots.

Yep. And the AA crews who made the rice drops to the Lao villages. And a lot of those Hmong grunts riding those helos were no slouches either....

ARVN lost 50%..most of the firebases overrun...Gods..U.S. helo pilots were leaving with guys hanging on the skids while Charlie overran the hill tops.

The lucky ones were the ones leaving. Too many stayed behind. Kingbees had gasoline engines and burned real good when the fuel tanks went up.

Shot to pieces..the Helos..from Loaches to big Sky cranes.

I was told by a USAF historian, though I couldn't back it up, that there was only one model of aircraft operated in SEA that went through the 1960- 1975 period without having at least one example of the type shot down or DNR for mechanical reasons. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it was so, however.

I guess Charlie had the terrain mapped for the Opp...some ARVN puke gave them the opp.

SAMS..triple in quad blocks....like running a gaunlet.

Charlie and the NVA were usually very familiar with the terrain and locale, having considered and experienced such things in their backyard since the days of the Japanese occupation of WWII.

6-8 Helos holed like swiss cheese...some down..and they have only just crossed into Laos.

Guys trapped in mangled wreckage..firing hand guns while charlie puts AK 47 rounds into them..

Fight like hell, go down swinging, die in place.

Next day..more opps..plus trying to get downed crews. Every popular movie has a sequel.

So you have walked away from 4 wrecks...thats amazing. Make any vows..? : )

I kinda limped and hopped from one or two. I made vows to quit volunteering to cheat the odds, and I probably should have avoided aircraft alltogether thereafter. But I've worked as an airkine A&P mechanic and otherwise for a couple of arrlines. Airplanes stay together a lot better whwn people aren't shootinh holes in them.

A relative went down in the Arctic on oil exploration. Hit hard and crushed....he crawled out...lucky their flight plan was being followed,,and their wreck was on the track. after..he refused to fly in helo's in the Arctic.

I don't think I'd fly up that way without at least a survival kit aboard...as required by AK state law.

Shift..was reading about what damage an RPG round can do when it is a dud... in this weeks time magazine..an account were a dud went in the back of a M113...and sheared off 3 soldiers legs.

The PG-7 projectile weighs in at around 5 pounds and is driven 900 meters or better at 300 meters/second, and those pop-out guidance fins on the thing are like little knife blades. I've heard of people being hit by an RPG up close enough, at about 15 meters, that the warhead didn't arm and detonate, but which pass right through a person like an oversized, 3-inch diameter bullet. And they've also got a lighter 40mm version that's even faster and has a much higher velocity and flat trajectory.

I imagine an RPG dud would make a real mess of a Helo... Not to mention a 3-inch hole through flight control surfaces, fuelm or hydraulic lines, or control cables or wiring. Bad juju, and proof you're within range and so can be hit, therefore ripoe for the next round fired, which will go off. Chainlink RPG screens generally gave a dud rate of around 50% to B-40 and PG-7 rounds that hit them, but you still don't want to be around one so impacting.

I'd really like to see the U.S. go to night opps..and do the door kick in thing..and ring the area...blow away anything moving that hasn't a strobe.

We're getting a little too overconfident on night vision equipment, and mines still work whether it's daylight or not. And an ambush or mine waiting for such doorkickers may achieve some limited success, but really score if the routes for an expected responce force are limited and something additionally nasty can be arranged along their most likely route.

I think Rummsy going to do a big Bug Hunt on Sunni triangle when Styrkers..Marines and Special forces come up. again..hope they tac this night..and really squeeze hard on them..and accept collateral damage,tears and Robert Fisk crying editorials.

I guess we're about to find out what the RPG-7 does to Stryker's ½-inch thick armor and external fuel tanks. And what the spatter from a PG-7 rocket detonation does to the adjoining tires if one of those on a Stryker is hit, my bet is that if either of the two middle ones are hit, the adjoing tire on either side will be shredded too, killing three tires with one hit. And if the rocket hits between third and fourth tire, there's a thinwalled external fuel tank just behind them.

Like to see them kick the door in on the Mosque too. What! During the holy prayer season of Ramalamadingdan! But that might upset practicioners of the *Religion of Peace,* especially those who run the Saudi Arabian oil buisnesses.

Iraq is hard..but not like Vietnam..where the guy Hunting you had some real talent and was persistent.

The VC and NVA were indeed both motivated and experienced, having fought the French and Japanese before taking us on for a decade-plus. But the Iraqis can be just as courageous and resourceful, and their near-decade war with Iran gave them some experienced individuals and units that are not to be taken lightly. And if they seemed less than particularly motivated during the 1991 Gulf War, it appears there are at least some hard-core fighters ready to fight against an infidel foreign invader on their soil, or for the monetary benefits offered- or both.

-archy-/-

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