Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Life starts after 14 days, say Anglicans
The Age (Australia) ^ | November 5, 2003 | Peta Rasdien

Posted on 11/06/2003 2:43:16 PM PST by nickcarraway

Life does not begin when sperm meets egg, but 14 days after, according to the head of the Anglican Church in Australia.

Primate Peter Carnley told the Fertility Society of Australia in Perth yesterday this meant objections to IVF, genetic testing and stem cell research should fall away.

Archbishop Carnley said that until it was implanted in a womb lining, a fertilised egg was not a human life but rather a genetically novel kind of cell.

The fertilised egg must also pass the point that it could split to become an identical twin, which was at about 14 days. After that, the embryo should be accorded the status of an individual human with rights to care, protection and life.

Dr Carnley's position clearly contradicts that of the Catholic Church, which holds that life begins when an egg is fertilised.

But Dr Carnley said the debate about the beginning of life within the Christian faith did not come to that view until 1869, when Pius IX declared all abortion was wrong from the beginning of conception.

Dr Carnley argued that scientific knowledge had moved forward since then and must be taken into account.

If conception was defined as the meeting of gametes - egg and sperm - then the cloned sheep Dolly was not conceived, because Dolly was the product of cell nuclear transfer, where the ovum nucleus was replaced by DNA from an adult cell.

"I think it is now clear that we must begin to think of conception less as a moment and more in gradual and continuous terms as a process," Dr Carnley said.

He said since 1984 Anglican moral theology had concluded that conception was a 14-day process and this helped shape legislation around the world.

"Given that twinning can occur up to the 14th day of this process, it is not logically possible to talk of the conception of a unique human individual prior to the completion of this process.

"Each of us can say that we came to be in the sense that we were each conceived, as a potential human individual, 14 days after the fertilisation of an ovum, not before." He said the natural 60 per cent wastage of ova during IVF procedures need not be considered the killing of conceived human individuals.

"We do not have some 70,000 frozen people on ice at various places around Australia," he said.

Embryo experimentation and stem cell research were also morally acceptable.

"If there is a utilitarian argument for the possible benefit to mankind of experimentation on embryos, this could be tolerated in a controlled way under licence up until the 14th day in a way that after the 14th day it would not," he said.

"Stem cell research becomes also thinkable, for stem cells are harvested well within the 14th day period."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Political Humor/Cartoons; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: andlican; anglicans; australia; catholiclist; life; origins; prolife; religion; science
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 141-160161-180181-200 ... 381-384 next last
To: MHGinTN
The fact that you still continue to insist that I am somehow attempting to adopt any particular starting point is proof that you're simply not listening. Oh well. I'm done. But if I actually believed that honest debate could make me a dolt, I've have stopped a long time ago.
161 posted on 11/07/2003 3:13:14 PM PST by mcg1969
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: mcg1969
My fog, my bad. That's the one I had in mind. So it goes back further. Also "I knit you together in your mother's womb." That seems to hark clear back to the moment of physical fertilization -- once the DNA has joined, the knitting has begun.
162 posted on 11/07/2003 3:44:30 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck ("Across this great nation people pray -- do not put out her flame" -- DFU. Go Godsquad!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 157 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
OK, we were both wrong I think. The verse I quoted is from Psalm 139:13: (Amplified)

For You did form my inward parts; You did knit me together in my mother's womb. I will confess and praise You for You are fearful and wonderful and for the awful wonder of my birth!

I disagree that this refers to a particular event like conception though. It's rather clear that the language describes a process of creation that culminates in birth. Not that this disproves a life-from-conception position, I just don't think it supports it.

Indeed, let us not forget Ecclesiastes 11:5: (Amplified)

As you know not what is the way of the wind, or how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a pregnant woman, even so you know not the work of God, Who does all.

163 posted on 11/07/2003 4:16:56 PM PST by mcg1969
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 162 | View Replies]

To: mcg1969
Bones may be metaphorical for the structure of the being. I.e. the DNA, the other parts of the zygote cell, could count as "bones" for the sake of this passage. There are other verses in the bible about bones that would be untrue if taken literally.
164 posted on 11/07/2003 4:27:25 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck ("Across this great nation people pray -- do not put out her flame" -- DFU. Go Godsquad!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 163 | View Replies]

To: The Coach
"Human" as applied to a cell in my fingernail does not mean the same thing as "human" as applied to you and me

So you think that a cell in your fingernail is human. You think it is alive. But you don't think it is a human life? What kind of life is it?

165 posted on 11/07/2003 4:51:52 PM PST by beavus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 123 | View Replies]

To: hocndoc
As I wrote in post 100, the sperm cell is not capable of any more division, differentiation or development. It is not "a life," simply a motile cell.

Motile cells are not alive?

On the other hand, reproducible observation gives evidence of the fact that healthy human zygotes do divide, the resulting cells are a cohesive unit which differentiate and develop and grow. Each zygote *is* "a life" at fertilization because he or she possesses these qualities -- even when that one life becomes 2, 3, or 4 in his or her development and growth.

By that reasoning, you must think a hepatocyte is "a life".

166 posted on 11/07/2003 4:54:45 PM PST by beavus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 124 | View Replies]

To: Held_to_Ransom
A sperm is not a living creature, it is merely the half of what is required to make a living creature. It is alive but not a creature.

Is an ameoba a creature? How about a white blood cell? And do you really think the definition of "creature", which long predated any knowledge of genetics, must be based upon a genetic concept? Does that mean that people who used the word "creature" before knowledge of chromosomes did not know what they were talking about?

167 posted on 11/07/2003 4:58:42 PM PST by beavus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
You asked, "First, wouldn't culturing of an animal cell be sufficient to demonstrate that the cell is 'an individual form of life'?" Is the cell as it exists naturally an organism or a sub-unit of an organ of an organism? For your direction of argument to make sense, each human organism would have to be considered as a sub-unit of an 'individual' called human race. I'm not interested in going down that obfuscational road.

I think you have my argument backwards. I wasn't suggesting that anything need be a part of any larger structure for any of the concepts we are using. Just the opposite. I was suggesting that there are examples of things which are usually a part of a larger structure that can be shown to function individually, and even reproduce, in culture. That is, I am suggesting that being an individual life may have nothing to do with whether or not something ever was a part of a larger structure.

168 posted on 11/07/2003 5:14:23 PM PST by beavus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 134 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway
In case anyone was in doubt about these people . . .
169 posted on 11/07/2003 5:16:00 PM PST by firebrand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ArGee
Idiots rarely do.

Thank God! I finally found a non-idiot who can tell me exactly what it means to "play God". I eagerly await your reply.

170 posted on 11/07/2003 5:16:40 PM PST by beavus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | View Replies]

To: syriacus
"Having life" does not equal "having a life".

Excellent, excellent point. There must be some reason why the "a" gets dropped. I wonder why you were the first to make it.

So, you think a sperm is a life, but a sperm is not life? What is the difference between "life" and "a life"?

171 posted on 11/07/2003 5:20:41 PM PST by beavus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 138 | View Replies]

To: Diamond
Yes it is. And you're alien argument doesn't fly.

The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

172 posted on 11/07/2003 5:22:55 PM PST by Lorianne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 144 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke
You're being deliberately obtuse.

But with good intentions. The language is confused and perhaps leads to confused thinking.

You have a separate life when it is viable without further volitional human intervention.

So a bacterium is "a separate life" because it "is viable without...volitional human intervention"?

Fertilization is the last volitional act required of man before the development of a new human being.

Placing a hepatocyte in the propper culture medium is the last volitional act required of man before the development of a colony of hepatocytes. Does this mean you agree that a living human hepatocyte is a human life?

173 posted on 11/07/2003 5:27:56 PM PST by beavus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | View Replies]

To: beavus
You wrote (being purposely erroneous), So you think that a cell in your fingernail is human. You think it is alive. But you don't think it is a human life? What kind of life is it? Nice try at constructing a smelly strawman, but it stinks of gamesmanship, not honest discussion. The person you addressed has made it quite clear that the cell in the finger is alive and is a portion of a human ORGANISM. Stop trying to play games just to be obverse. Either you choose to not understand the difference between an organ (or sub-unit of an organ) and an organism, or you are not able to understand the difference. I vote it is the former and you do it to play games, which is most insulting. But then, in your anonymity you don't mind being insulting, do you?
174 posted on 11/07/2003 6:45:12 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 165 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
Bones may be metaphorical for the structure of the being. I.e. the DNA, the other parts of the zygote cell, could count as "bones" for the sake of this passage.

Agreed.

175 posted on 11/07/2003 6:56:06 PM PST by mcg1969
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 164 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
Whoa, now that's the pot calling the kettle black.
176 posted on 11/07/2003 6:58:32 PM PST by mcg1969
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
I wouldn't have a problem saying yes, it was two (or more) people.

I think I see your point.

If we thought one person (let's call him "Fred") might be in a box, we would not shoot at the box.

If we find out there is not just one person in the box, but there are two persons in the box, (Fred and Francis), we would not decide it is therefore okay to shoot at the box.

It's not the singleness of the person in the box that makes us hesitate to shoot, it's the human life/lives of whoever is in the box, which causes us to refrain from shooting.

177 posted on 11/07/2003 6:58:55 PM PST by syriacus (Casual comments about tubes, made after watching a 3 handkerchief movie, do not justify euthanasia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies]

To: beavus
I go with post #174 to you and the fact that your linguistic gamesmanship is insulting.

Cutting past all of your useless strawmen, let's just say that the answer to your inane questions is that HUMAN life develops into HUMAN life. If it isn't human in its development, it can't be human at the start. If it is human at any stage, it is human at all stages... just a different stage of human. A baby is an incompletely baked adult human... but it is still human.
178 posted on 11/07/2003 7:56:23 PM PST by pgyanke ("The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God" - C.S. Lewis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: beavus
Seems to me that there are two definitions of "human" lurking in here. One is "a piece of an individual of the species homo sapiens." The other is "an entity which can, with nothing more than proper environment (e.g. nutrition, hormones, physical support, but NOT external tampering with the structure as in cloning), either exist as or develop into an individual of the species homo sapiens."
179 posted on 11/07/2003 7:58:26 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck ("Across this great nation people pray -- do not put out her flame" -- DFU. Go Godsquad!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 165 | View Replies]

To: beavus
[ Seems to me that there are two definitions of "human" lurking in here. ]

... and, the first does not have sanctity of life. The second does. By way of illustration: if you remove my arm, you have not committed an offense against the life of my arm, but you have committed an offense against the life of ME.

180 posted on 11/07/2003 8:02:34 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck ("Across this great nation people pray -- do not put out her flame" -- DFU. Go Godsquad!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 165 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 141-160161-180181-200 ... 381-384 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson