The Sierra Club-Clinton Legacy: Dead Firemen, Charred Forests, Dying Economy

Toogood Reports ^ | 11-02-03

[E.G.C.]

BTTT!!!!!!

[Carry_Okie]

And your home page says it all! Should have looked before I bothered to reply to your first comment. Bye, bye!

How characteristically shallow of you. Have you read who has endoresed my work?

[OldFriend]

You mean disagreeing with one's position is now considered uncivil?????????????

As I said, who should I believe, my lying ears or Okie's defense of the sainted Senator Feinstein?

When a politician refuses to do the right thing because one of her avowed enemies might benefit I have NO respect for that position whatsoever. After all, ONLY a few thousand homes have burned, and ONLY 20 people have died. Can't let the loggers log now can we.

[First_Salute]

Author of the article, is Mary Mostert.

[Carry_Okie]

So her statement that she was most concerned that the logging companies might make a profit off the legislation was a figment of my imagination.

"There is a tremendous lesson in these fires. That the land has to be managed," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., a leading co-sponsor of the compromise forest bill. The Senate approved it by a vote of 80-14.

The Healthy Forests Iniative would not have passed with the margin it did without Feinstein's support. Feinstein has an established record supporting logging as a way to improve forest health. As much as I find her despicable, you are way out of line.

[Carry_Okie]

As I said, who should I believe, my lying ears or Okie's defense of the sainted Senator Feinstein?

Sainted? Excuse me, but here is what I wrote:

Inasmuch as I detest the treasonous corruption represented by Diane Feinstein, this is a false piece of character assasination when it comes to her forest policy.

I called her corrupt and treasonous. She is certainly both. She has supported forest thinning and bears no resemblance to Boxer on this issue.

[upcountryhorseman]

The factor of human habitation must be considered in this
equation. If insurance companies would raise their rates
in high risk areas, this could control construction in these
areas.

[Heyworth]

This idea is all over FR right now, that somehow the Sierra Club and other environmentalists are somehow responsible for this disaster. The truth is that there's never been a fight to save the forests of the San Bernardinos because the timber industry hasn't been interested. Logging up there peaked before WW1 and the last commercial logging operation shut down in the 1950s, long before the SIerra Club began making noise. There were just lots of easier places to log up north. And chaparral has so little commercial value that it's a money-losing proposition to clear it.

[snopercod]

The Sierra Club opposes firebreaks, too.

I grew up out there, and in the 50's and 60's, there were firebreaks all over the mountains. Their primary purpose was not so much to stop fires, but to provide access for firefighting equipment.

[Heyworth]

There are still loads of fire roads all through the mountains. That's why the mountain biking is so good around here.

[AAABEST]

I know both of you personally. What we have here is a misunderstanding, you're both on the same side.

Jan, Mark is a great guy and a real conservative conservationist.

Mark, Jan is a super gal who doesn't know you. Sometimes us anti-envirals are so warey of anything resembling a green that you may at times become a victim of mis-identification.

[hedgetrimmer]

Quincy Library Group is another NGO getting govnerment funding. Its the same old thing, instead of taking care of problems in a constitutional fashion, a soviet style council is formed so that a consensus, or a pre-determined outcome, can be reached. Often legitimate business people join these groups because if they don't they don't have a say in what their government is doing. I don't see how enacting law by NGO consensus group is considered a win in any way, unless you support government by soviet style council.

Read about the people running this group-- its sustainable this, consensus that, collaborative involvement-- Pravda could have edited this stuff. Anyone lurking or posting to freerepublic finds a wealth of documentation that shows sustainable developement, forestry or anything is the socialization of that resource.

I don't believe non-governmental organizations should have more influence than individual citizens on government policy, and I most certainly do not think they should get funding by the government for anything.

[OldFriend]

For the longest time NJ's EPA was funded by the fines they collected. Ripe for abuse!!!!!And abuse they did!

[hedgetrimmer]

Lawsuits were filed by environmental NGOs(nongovernmental organizations). Even though their name says nongovernmental, they act like our government and our politicians kowtow to them.

[ArmstedFragg]

You have to admit it's an almost overwhelming temptation to whack those smug SC s.o.b's, though.

But I agree that this series of fires has little to do with environmentalists except to the extent that they've fought off efforts to pave over brush land.

If we could just find some commercial use for chaparral, I'm sure they'd intervene on a moment's notice.

[ArmstedFragg]

in the 50's and 60's, there were firebreaks all over the mountains.

The particular location where the Cypress fire started is one of the few areas in the county without fire roads because the terrain is too rugged. It's in the San Diego riverbed, and directly north of it is a memorial for the firefighters killed in the Inaja fire somewhere in the late 50's. They had gone downslope on a fire that was working out of the riverbed, and it blew over them. There were no roads then, either.

Everybody in the wildland fire business is familiar with that story, and the universal response when the location was first transmitted was "Oh S**T"

That idiot chose to start his beacon fire in a location where it was impossible to get the gear to the fire. Murphy all the way.

[Brad’s Gramma]

Bookmarked.

[Fearless Flyers]

I'm for throwing out the baby with the bath water, when it comes to California, let Mexico have it. In ten years the corruption and lack of care for the citizens will have the residents begging the U.S. to liberate them.

I haven't been paying much attention to the fires so I can only make assumptions, maybe you correct them.

It seems to me that both private and public lands have been mismanaged and if the Californians had gotten off their lazy asses and taken care of God's creation these fires would not have been as catastrophic as they became. I don’t support the environmentalist and I believe that the States constituents have allowed them to take control out of ignorance and indifference.

I stopped buying materials from California and those that came through their ports long ago. I hate paying for their socialist policies that seem to me, only promote a lazy culture. The hell if I want America’s tax dollars used to allow them to continue those policies.

Why should we believe that if emergency funds are sent to help California recover from this catastrophe and their economic mismanagement, anything will change in the future?

[Carry_Okie]

I'm for throwing out the baby with the bath water, when it comes to California, let Mexico have it.

Throw that baby out and you'll have killed your sister and you'll be next. Although California politics are clearly complicit in this disaster, it's the Federal government that is responsible for most of the species listings that prevented anyone from touching those forests.

I stopped buying materials from California and those that came through their ports long ago. I hate paying for their socialist policies that seem to me, only promote a lazy culture.

I don't believe that this is even possible, and you've NEVER seen people work as hard as they do in Silicon Valley, much less the sweatshops of LA. It may seem laid back to you, but that's only the media picture.

This is a State that passed ballot measures against same sex marriage, against affirmative action, for English only instruction, and against benefits for illegal aliens, all by wide margins. Does that sound like a bunch of liberals to you? Did your state do that?

Why should we believe that if emergency funds are sent to help California recover from this catastrophe and their economic mismanagement, anything will change in the future?

There I am with you, and I don't think Arnold will make it any better.

[Fearless Flyers]

Yes, it is possible for me to buy all my materials and not have them come from or through California. I'm a kite maker, my silk is imported to the East Coast my dies are made in Ohio and my cotton is/was milled in North Carolina. I have to constantly check on the later with all the mill closings we've been seeing.

I spent two weeks on the research when I desided to dump Darhma Trading Company as one stop vender, you can ask several people on this forum if they remember the experince. I now have several venders to choose from and I make them compete for my business. I save anywhere from 20 to 40% as compared to the prices Darhma offered and its a much more pleasant experience dealing with the venders.

As far as the other points are concerned, I knew you could correct my assumptions and that is why addressed you about the topic. Though I have trouble hiding the fact that I'm a natural born antagonist, I hope you know I always appreciate your knowledge and experience and have never had reason not to respect you.