Posted on 10/27/2003 11:53:33 AM PST by SJackson
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 at 13:41
Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators
In a recent blog entry titled, "I've Been Red-Baited!", I wrote, "I'm not familiar with LibertyForum.org, but it appears to be an anti-Bush, anti-war message board with a distinctly anti-Jewish undertone."
A member of LibertyForum.org named Max Soldo (aka "thoughtcriminal") has responded by e-mail and provided further clarification of LibertyForum's political orientation. He writes:
This forum is a libertarian forum, and is devoted to the libertarian concept of unabashed free speech. With that principle in mind, most posters aren't libertarian as many fringe types have taken advantage of this policy (which includes a no-banning policy) to run amok...hence the preponderance of anti-Jewish posts on this forum.
All of this raises interesting questions for any message board moderator -- such as myself -- who has tried his best to allow a relatively high level of free expression. Inevitably, Nazi trolls find your forum and begin probing your defenses. If you allow them to post messages, they immediately spread the word to other Nazi trolls and soon your message board is infested.
At that point, all the normal people stop posting. It's a bit like when a fight breaks out in a bar and everyone stops talking and turns to watch the fight, transfixed. Suddenly, your message board becomes an arena for Nazi trolls and people arguing with Nazi trolls.
This is called "free speech."
I decided long ago that allowing Nazi trolls to occupy my message board and drive off everyone who does not share their idiosyncratic obsessions is a very poor method for encouraging "free speech." Therefore, I make frequent and forceful use of such allegedly un-libertarian methods as censoring and, when necessary, banning troublemakers, brownshirted or otherwise.
Apparently, the decision-makers at LibertyForum.org have adopted a different approach. As a result, their self-styled "libertarian" message board has become, by Mr. Soldo's description, a playground for non-libertarian "fringe types" to "run amok."
"It does get quite ugly at times, but that's the price one pays for sticking to one's principles," writes Mr. Soldo in a subsequent e-mail.
Well, if that's the price, I don't think I'm willing to pay it. I will add the sad fate of LibertyForum.org to my growing list of reasons for rethinking whether or not I wish to continue calling myself a "libertarian."
(oh wait... that's here)
You really have a burr up your you know where, that you are not King of FR, IMO.
Oh well, IMO, Jim doesn't consider himself King, either, but you sure do your best using tired old leftist language trying to make you "burr up your you know what" point.
I used to be considered "normal" but then someone from LF found out I was a "Merchant" in real life and now I've been branded a "Free Tratior" here at FR.
I was gonna go over to LF but I heard I would have to wear a yellow star there so I thought I would just stick here and deal with the "Free Tratior" thing as it comes.
Oh yeah, and I want a pony!
Anyone who calls them for what they are, must be "one of them jews".
It's more a laugh than anything.
Uh MA, having OWK "speak" up for you, is a definition of the word oxymoronic, IMO.
BTW, MA, do you still listen by your radio with baited breath every Thanksgiving, hoping that your local doper FM radio station plays "Alice's Restaurant" by Arlo Guthrie.
Ah yes, the anarchist sticking the the finger to the man, the true meaning of anarchist Thanksgiving.
If that was your problem, why didn't you say so?
The only thing absurd is you ignoring the fact that they were sent there.
Why comment derisively at post #2 were you unwilling or not prepared to answer (I doubt that) the question you would inevitably incite?
As to our common ground. An overabundance of mud makes the most useful thread too much to wade through to bother separating the true challenges from amongst the muck.
JohnRob is rumored to have a personalized troll button awaiting in the wings. That offers one solution. Do you think it a worthy enough idea to pass along?
You're not? Damn, that's why I left. :^}
Didn't have a lick of trouble with the skinheads until they got kicked off this site (and Jim pointed them in our direction).I see a bit of wanting to have your cake and eat it too here, OWK. On the one hand, you want to say that we poisoned the LF well by getting rid of people over here, but on the other hand you want to complain about the filtration system here.Sorry, but that's how it was.
You guys dumped your trash in the well, and then bitch about the water quality.
I am glad about one thing, though. From what I had gleaned from several of your posts to me recently, you were of the opinion that MAF and I in particular, and the moderators in general, were guilty of trying to purge libertarians. It is good to see you admit, indirectly, that this was not the case.
But to say that we were pointing people over to LF is not accurate. For that, you can thank whoever "Vallandigham" is, for as this post shows, he was the one directing people over to LF.
So you think LF now has a problem. Since LF is trying to be run by a particular set of ideals, it should be interesting to see how it resolves this problem. I doubt that placing the blame for the problem externally is going to lead to a solution. Especially when you incorrectly place the blame.
Regards
I had always thought you to be much more thoughtful person than what you are demonstrating on this thread.
Perhaps you are just much younger than I had thought.
As to ..pronouncements on the joy of killing A-rabs or the Frenchor the French, the bombing of civilians or the folks on this site (Brian S and Yonif)... to the extent that one of FRs objectives is electing Republicans, I wouldn't entirely disagree with you, but I'm the wrong one to direct that complaint to. BTW, yonif posts about Israel a lot, but I don't remember him getting out of line over "killing Arabs", Brian S's posts don't ring a bell right now.
Yeah, and it is just an absolutely *amazing* coincidence that this blog entry, written last August and not even on the main page of his blog any more, was posted here the very morning that the LF thread where it was mentioned was resurrected.
LF: A Response to Richard PoeDear Mr. Poe,
In regarding your latest blog entry Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson For Message Board Moderators, you have left your readers with a false perception of what Liberty Forum is intended to be, and how it actually operates today.
In a private email which I granted you permission to post onto your website, I said:
Quote:
This forum is a libertarian forum, and is devoted to the libertarian concept of unabashed free speech. With that principle in mind, most posters aren't libertarian as many fringe types have taken advantage of this policy (which includes a no-banning policy) to run amok...hence the preponderance of anti-Jewish posts on this forum.
This quote leaves much to be desired. It also leaves the impression that all the non-libertarians on this board are "Nazi trolls". That most certainly isn't the case. Although Liberty Forum was set up with the intention of being a discussion forum for libertarians, the libertarian principle of free speech takes precedence. With this in mind yes, most of our posters aren't libertarian....but that doesn't automatically mean that they're "Nazi Trolls".
Our membership includes posters with political views that span the entire spectrum: from left-leaning libertarians, Paleo-Conservatives, Neo-Conservatives, Islamic Theocrats, Socialists, etc.
John Deere, the owner and Administrator of Liberty Forum, welcomes this and believes it's a good thing since he feels that in a free market situation such as this the best ideas win out....and John Deere is of the strong opinion that libertarian ideas are best placed to win in a free market and free exchange such as Liberty Forum.
To continue, you posited this in your blog:
Quote:
Inevitably, Nazi trolls find your forum and begin probing your defenses. If you allow them to post messages, they immediately spread the word to other Nazi trolls and soon your message board is infested.
At that point, all the normal people stop posting. It's a bit like when a fight breaks out in a bar and everyone stops talking and turns to watch the fight, transfixed. Suddenly, your message board becomes an arena for Nazi trolls and people arguing with Nazi trolls.
Where you make your error is where you state: "At that point, all the normal people stop posting."
As stated above, not all the non-libertarians are "Nazi Trolls". Secondly, your suggestion that they aren't "normal" is quite subjective. But the main point is that while a few did leave Liberty Forum, the vast majority of those committed to libertarianism or anarcho-capitalism decided to stay since they value the concept of free speech, a concept inherent in libertarianism.
Many of us might not like much of the speech we see here every day, but we're committed to the principles laid down by John Deere in his Charter, and have grown attached to what we've built here. There's much animosity here, but there's also quite a bit of loyalty to both John Deere and to Liberty Forum in general, more than any other board I've been part of. And this crosses ideological, religious, ethnic, and cultural lines.
One last note:
The impression left with you is that the trolls here are "Nazi" in flavour. Yes, we do have some of that stripe, but we've also experienced trolls of other stripes as well including the notorious Zionist trolls that infect discussion fora much like their Nazi bete noires.
Max Soldo aka "thoughtcriminal"
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