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To Restore Religious Freedoms.
Thomas Legislative Information on the Internet ^ | 8/21/03 | Wayne Allard(R-CO)

Posted on 10/23/2003 5:35:13 AM PDT by ForGod'sSake

S 1558 IS

108th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 1558

To restore religious freedoms.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

August 1 (legislative day, JULY 21), 2003

Mr. ALLARD introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary


A BILL

To restore religious freedoms.

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

SEC. 2. FINDINGS.

SEC. 3. RELIGIOUS LIBERTY RIGHTS DECLARED.

END

The bill has a total of 10 cosponsors; they are:

Sen Brownback, Sam - 9/23/2003 [KS] Sen Bunning, Jim - 10/20/2003 [KY]
Sen Burns, Conrad R. - 9/29/2003 [MT] Sen Cochran, Thad - 9/30/2003 [MS]
Sen Craig, Larry E. - 10/21/2003 [ID] Sen Enzi, Michael B. - 10/2/2003 [WY]
Sen Graham, Lindsey O. - 9/26/2003 [SC] Sen Inhofe, Jim - 9/30/2003 [OK]
Sen Lott, Trent - 9/30/2003 [MS] Sen Shelby, Richard C. - 9/25/2003 [AL]


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: allard; constitution; judiaciary; judicialtyranny; religiousliberties; rlra; s1558; schiavo
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To: Modernman
Sigh... nobody prays to Mary. Asking Mary to intercede on your behalf is not praying to Mary.

It's not? What is it then? It's also using Mary as a mediator between yourself and Christ, and Hebrews explicitly states there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. Another passage says to "come boldly before the throne of grace and make your requests known to God" (known to whom - God, not Mary). Mary didn't die for anyone and she can't intercede to God for anyone. Only Christ can do that.

181 posted on 10/24/2003 9:06:51 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: mcg1969
Whenever a word appears in sentence it was selected because has one meaning.

I meant to say here "Whenver a word appears in a sentence it was selected for one of its meanings."

182 posted on 10/24/2003 9:07:01 AM PDT by mcg1969
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To: Havoc
It's my example, leave it alone

The example is based on a faulty premise. You're saying you consider praying to Mary to be a sin, which is all well and good. However, since nobody actually prays to Mary, your point is meaningless.

it's communicating with the bodily dead which is a scriptural no no and has been since long before Christ. It's sin.

That's one opinion- about 1.2 billion people disagree with you.

183 posted on 10/24/2003 9:09:23 AM PDT by Modernman ("I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe."- Jango Fett)
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To: exmarine
It's not? What is it then?

It's no different than asking a saint to intercede on your behalf, which has been going on for about 1700 years. Nothing special here. Asking Mary to intercede on your behalf is not much different than asking other Christians to pray for you.

Mary didn't die for anyone and she can't intercede to God for anyone. Only Christ can do that.

Mary is beloved of God because she bore His one son. She was not just a vessel, to be used and then discarded. He chose her as the mother of His son. Isn't it therefore logical to conlude that she is important to God?

184 posted on 10/24/2003 9:14:59 AM PDT by Modernman ("I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe."- Jango Fett)
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To: Havoc
Thus there must be a non subjective basis for morality. Personal opinion is subjective and a moving target.

The problem here is that morality is a personal decision. Society should not attempt to coerce virtue- forced virtue is not virtue at all.

185 posted on 10/24/2003 9:17:18 AM PDT by Modernman ("I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe."- Jango Fett)
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To: Modernman
Argue with scripture. It's in black and white. Scripture is right and you are wrong. There is one mediator between God and man, and believers go boldly to the throne of Grace. Biblical authority is SUPREME.
186 posted on 10/24/2003 9:17:44 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: Modernman
Mary is beloved of God because she bore His one son. She was not just a vessel, to be used and then discarded. He chose her as the mother of His son. Isn't it therefore logical to conlude that she is important to God?

Give me the scriptures that say we should ask Mary for help.

187 posted on 10/24/2003 9:18:30 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: Modernman
It's no different than asking a saint to intercede on your behalf, which has been going on for about 1700 years. Nothing special here. Asking Mary to intercede on your behalf is not much different than asking other Christians to pray for you.

Jesus ridiculed the traditions of men. Praying to Mary or to the dead goes directly against scripture as I already pointed out to you. Any tradition that is contrary to scripture is false.

188 posted on 10/24/2003 9:20:43 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: Modernman
1 Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Heb. 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Until you deal with these scriptures and somehow reconcile your beliefs with these (which you can't), you don't have a leg to stand on.

189 posted on 10/24/2003 9:23:46 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: exmarine
Praying to Mary or to the dead goes directly against scripture as I already pointed out to you

And as I pointed out to you, nobody "prays" to Mary. Asking for her interecession is not prayer, under any definition.

190 posted on 10/24/2003 9:24:45 AM PDT by Modernman ("I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe."- Jango Fett)
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To: exmarine
Give me the scriptures that say we should ask Mary for help.

Why do you need scriptures to tell you that asking other Christians to pray for you is a good thing? Praying is not a solitary thing- it is something that makes us part of a greater Christian community. By praying with Mary and asking her to intercede on our behalf, you don't really do anything different than when a congregation prays on behalf of a sick person, for example.

191 posted on 10/24/2003 9:31:16 AM PDT by Modernman ("I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe."- Jango Fett)
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To: Modernman
And as I pointed out to you, nobody "prays" to Mary. Asking for her interecession is not prayer, under any definition.

This is a no spin zone. :) Besides, prayer or not, you are still using Mary as a mediator - read the scriptures again!

192 posted on 10/24/2003 9:32:03 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: exmarine
Until you deal with these scriptures and somehow reconcile your beliefs with these (which you can't), you don't have a leg to stand on.

These scriptures you quoted are meaningless to this debate. They do not prevent any Christian from praying with other Christians or asking other Christians to pray for them.

This fear of Mary on the part of you proddies comes off as somewhat misogynistic, IMHO.

193 posted on 10/24/2003 9:34:13 AM PDT by Modernman ("I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe."- Jango Fett)
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To: Modernman
Why do you need scriptures to tell you that asking other Christians to pray for you is a good thing? Praying is not a solitary thing- it is something that makes us part of a greater Christian community. By praying with Mary and asking her to intercede on our behalf, you don't really do anything different than when a congregation prays on behalf of a sick person, for example.

Mary can't hear you because Mary is not OMnisicient (that quality applies to God only) and that is what is required to hear the billions of prayers all at once.

And I say again, you are using a mediator and that goes against scripture! Deal with that. The bible says that Christ is the ONLY mediator. Get that thru your head. It also says to come boldly to the throne of God not boldly to Mary.

194 posted on 10/24/2003 9:34:21 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: Modernman
These scriptures you quoted are meaningless to this debate. They do not prevent any Christian from praying with other Christians or asking other Christians to pray for them.

False. You are using a mediator other than Christ. Deal with it. Mary is not omniscient.

195 posted on 10/24/2003 9:35:28 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: mcg1969
Because God endowed all men with a conscience, even those that don't believe in Him.

I know what you mean, but please know that means nothing to me. Some African can say the great god Zumbubu endowed me with the ability to walk backwards, and I will give their claims as much credence as yours: none.

196 posted on 10/24/2003 9:36:15 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: Modernman
That's one opinion

It isn't an opinion. It's scripture. If it were an opinion, i'd offer it as such. It isn't. But, then this is what I'm talking about isn't it lol.

197 posted on 10/24/2003 9:36:44 AM PDT by Havoc (If you can't be frank all the time are you lying the rest of the time?)
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To: exmarine
And I say again, you are using a mediator and that goes against scripture!

If that's your take on it, fine. If your particular reading of the Bible, which is probably endorsed by a few million people, calls this mediation, who am I to argue? God bless you, and I hope you find salvation. God will decide which one of us is correct. I'm happy to stick with an interpretation of scripture shared by the majority of the world's Christians for the last 1700 or so years.

198 posted on 10/24/2003 9:43:38 AM PDT by Modernman ("I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe."- Jango Fett)
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To: Havoc
But lets say it is supressed, what then is the compass upon which they rely for guidance - it is what they feel from moment to moment or what they can logically reason out.

As the Dalai Lama would say, it is that which results in the greatest amount of happiness.

If today we say it's ok only to sleep with someone before marriage, tomorrow they want to sleep with 12 girls or guys in public. The next day they're beeting down your door wanting to sleep with your wife.. We've seen this progression in society already.

That's the difference between an atheist who is a conservative (me) and one who is a liberal. Christians have this liberal to conservative spread too. And just like with you, we keep wishing the liberals would take a long walk off a short pier.

199 posted on 10/24/2003 9:44:32 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: exmarine
False. You are using a mediator other than Christ.

So you say. That's what I love about proddies- every one of them is a theologian with a special insight into scripture.

200 posted on 10/24/2003 9:45:12 AM PDT by Modernman ("I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe."- Jango Fett)
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