Posted on 04/09/2003 6:31:03 PM PDT by The Lake City Gar
I've been going through posts all day today and have been absolutely overjoyed. It seems as if we're finially making in-roads on preventing another 9-11 or worse. I wish I could bookmark this entire day...This place has it ALL covered, it should be used as a History lesson in years to come...The American Internet at it's FINEST!
But I just thought of something...
Where is the "Nuke Mecca" crowd? The "The only good muslim is a dead muslim" crowd? The "Islam is a death cult" crowd? The "Intern all Arabs" crowd? The "Islam is a religion of peace" crowd?
I've had a few run-ins with these people over the past few months. I've tried to make the obvious case that not ALL 1.6 billion muslims in the world are blood thirsty animals. And I've been called everything from a muslim to a communist to a democrat to a traitor. I've taken a beating for standing up against what I saw as bigotry...And many others have gone through the same.
But today we saw muslims handing flowers to our troops, kissing pictures of President Bush and waiving American Flags.
Is this just an act? Are they trying to lull us into a false sense of security while they are plotting to kill every last one of us in the name of their "Moon God"? Or are many of them simply held against their will by brutal dictators and/or religious fanatics who have warped their muslim ideals and ways?
I choose to believe it's the latter. And I hope the above mentioned crowds are gone for good.
The latter believes God is on his side, while the former prays to be on God's side...
Luis, don't EVER leave FR, okay?
You are one of the best things about this place.
The Flower Grew in the Dark
How can it be?
From under the snow
The flowers emerge
And begin to grow
How can it be?
The seed that dies
Goes into the ground
Only to arise
How can the humble
The meek and the lost
Find redemption again?
Only at great cost
How can a people
Break the tyrant's chain?
If the strong will help them
They can rise again
Miracles happen
Every single day
If we will only work
If we will only pray
EV
Say what... this?
Where is the "Nuke Mecca" crowd? The "The only good muslim is a dead muslim" crowd? The "Islam is a death cult" crowd? The "Intern all Arabs" crowd? The "Islam is a religion of peace" crowd?I've had a few run-ins with these people over the past few months. I've tried to make the obvious case that not ALL 1.6 billion muslims in the world are blood thirsty animals. And I've been called everything from a muslim to a communist to a democrat to a traitor. I've taken a beating for standing up against what I saw as bigotry...And many others have gone through the same.
But today we saw muslims handing flowers to our troops, kissing pictures of President Bush and waiving American Flags.
Is this just an act? Are they trying to lull us into a false sense of security while they are plotting to kill every last one of us in the name of their "Moon God"? Or are many of them simply held against their will by brutal dictators and/or religious fanatics who have warped their muslim ideals and ways?
I choose to believe it's the latter. And I hope the above mentioned crowds are gone for good.
It's not a little ironic that broad brushes are decried even as they are used. Of course Mecca shouldn't be nuked, nor should all Arabs be interred. Muslims, like any other group, are going to be a mixed bag.
That Iraqis have welcomed US troops in Baghdad and elsewhere is heartwarming. It shows that we have the potential to reach Muslim hearts and minds across vast cultural barriers.
Does it say anything more about Islam?
When Ceaucescu fell, when the Berlin Wall came down, did the joy of the Romanians and East Germans demonstrate anything positive about Communism?
The answer to all of the above is "no."
While Saddam ran a secular cult of personality in a Muslim nation, a look around the Islamic world reveals a panorama of autocratic and dictatorial regimes of varying degrees of brutality. The most democratic and Westernized example, Turkey, has conducted multiple holocausts against Armenians, Assyrians, and others, and has driven out most of its sizable Christian minority in recent decades.
Like Communism, Islam has a dismal record as a system under which free and open societies can flourish, anywhere it is a significant cultural force.
In fact, cults of personality, Saddam's secularism notwithstanding, are not new in the Muslim. Islam it self is a posthumous cult of personality to its murderous, brutal founder, Mohammed. The forceful imposition of sharia and connversion at swordpoint are not new, they have been with Islam since the beginning. Islam is not, at it's core, a religion of peace. The Mohammedan impulses within Islam that lead to conflict with the West are still there, I believe intransigently so.
So, it seems to me that lumping "nuke mecca" bluster with a sober assessment of the ugly truths about Islam is more emotional than accurate. However, since the premise of this thread is that all of the above are part of some crowd, and the implication is that we've been missing in action, here are some threads I posted yesterday about reaction in the Arab and Muslim world to the events in Baghdad...
Shock, disbelief at Saddam'sdefeat
(Islamic reactions)
US Marines Topple Towering Saddam Statue
(ArabNews.com tells the truth)
Jordanians Stunned Following Events in Iraq
Exclusive: US Occupies Baghdad
( pssst... ArabNews scoops the world! )Take a look, and I think you'll find that Muslim reactions are, as should be expected, a mixed bag.
A sidenote: the past few weeks, I've noticed a lot of the "why isn't the so-and-so crowd on this thread?" jeers... as though that means anything.
Different posters are animated by different topics, that's why we have more than one thread a day. There are topics that are generally of interest to me that I've hardly glanced at since the beginning of the liberation of Iraq. When the war is over, my interests there will probably resume. Also, even though I've spent a lot of time on FR during the war, posting dozens of threads, but I've flat-out missed a ton of others. Occasionally a title will catch my eye, and at closer examination I find it's two days old and has 250 posts.
My suggestion is that if you see a thread that illustrates some point you've been trying to make in an ongoing debate with some particular poster, flag them to it, and keep the conversation civil. You (I'm using the collective "you" here) might be surprised at the results.
Bump that, especially in context. From the Book of Matthew, chapter 7:
- 7:15
- Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
- 7:16
- Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
- 7:17
- Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
- 7:18
- A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
- 7:19
- Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
- 7:20
- Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
If ever there was a passage of the New Testament that speaks of Islam and its false prophet, this is it.
Mohammed was the bad seed. Modern jihadis are the bad fruit.
Islam is the bad tree by which one is ripened from the other.The obvious fact that not all Muslims are completely lost changes none of that.
Broad brushes? Yes, of course.
But...
I've seen too many of the comments I've described given a pass around here. This post for instance: http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/889453/posts#15
And when I've tried to speak up against the person making the comments by comparing them to people who visit Stormfront.com (Rightfully so, in my opinion...And I am also of the opinion that we are infested with Distruptors who really beleive such things and liberal Disruptors who don't believe such things but try to make Free Republic look bad by posting such things) I've been shouted down, called names and thretened with banning.
And I might get banned again for this post...I don't know. But I'm tired of seeing bigots discredit the name of Free Republic.
But first, kill all the strawmen.
If you want to get a bonfire of the strawmen going, I'll bring the fixings for the s'mores.
But...
"But..."
And there you have it. Your brushes are good, theirs are bad, but the tools are the same.
LCG, since you directed me to Texas Lizard's post, I thought I'd flag him for some clarification about his position on deportation.
First, though, I'll clarify mine. We are at war, and I believe, despite the position of President Bush, that this is a war between two civilizations: Western Judaeo-Christian civilization, and Islam. While not all Muslims are necessarily at war with us, Islam is, because it's prime directive is to subjugate the world to sharia law, by force if necessary. It's important to bear in mind that while not all Islamic nations are equally oppressive, the difference is a matter of degree and has been so for 1,400 years, right back to Mohammed, Islam's founder and false prophet.
It's also important to remember that on 9/11, this Clash of Civilizations came looking for us. Protestations that to accept the premise of this Clash is to agree with bin Laden are impertinent. In World War II we accepted Hitler's premise for that conflict, necessarily so, in insure the survival of much of the civilized world.
Now, even while you may disagree that violent conflict between Islam and the West is inevitable, I think you must concede that the position is not without merit. Once you do, however, other issues are cast in a different light.
If one accepts the premise of the Clash of Civilizations, and we are currently in that war, and that war has come to us on our soil in the form of terrorists who've exploited our traditionally generous immigration policies, then how do we best counter that domestic threat?
Looking at History, wherever Islam has gained a foothold trouble has inevitably followed for non-Muslims. Wherever Islam has gained a majority, non'Muslims are, at best, second class citizens. Therefore it is in our national interest to see to it that Islam does not fluorish in America.
However, since America rightfully doesn't treat people as second class citizens based on their religion, there should obviously be no anti-Muslim pogroms or Kristallnachts of the mosques. So long as Muslim citizens abide by our ways, their freedoms should in no way be affected.
But what about Muslim non-citizens?
Non-citizens are our guests here, and remain in America at our pleasure. Non-citizens who come from a hostile culture that is at war with ours represent an unnecessary theat, with a simple, moral, and perfectly Constitutional solution: deportation.
Therefore, I favor the deportation of all Muslim non-citizens from the Untied States as a matter of national security. There would be exceptions for the spouses and minor children of American citizens. This should be done humanely, with appropriate notice given and time allowed for deportees to get their affairs in order.
I wouldn't deport all Arabs, since Lebanese Marionites, Egyptian Copts, Iraqi Chaldeans, Assyrian Orthodox, etc., are examples of Arabs whose cultural understandings are not in opposition to ours.
EternalVigilance made the observation that there might be some provisos from the broadly brushed "nuke Mecca crowd." I've offered a few provisos here, with explanations, and also flagged some of the folks who posted to this thread in disagreement with at least some aspect of it's premise.
Incidentally, that's most of the posters here which at least partially answers the loaded question, "Where's the "Nuke Mecca" crowd today??"
And I have not cast the stone against Islam here either. Fistly, I spoke of political organizations in the U.S., not the private beliefs of the Muslims. But just as an average German was tolerant to, if not inpired by, the Nazis, the average Muslim in the United States is at least tolerant of people that represent him.
As for the statements issued, of course I could've missed something! But you also appear to have missed my point: I spoke of condamnations without ifs and buts. Yet, even the link you give me says that the statement "contained in part." This appears to be typical: the complete statements are without a date (issued much later, as damage control), and those dated Sep 11 are given only "in part" (because most of them contained references to our failed "Middle Eastern policies" that should make us "understand" the hijackers; you know full well that this has been reateated of every talk showe for about a month, until they understood that this was not good PR).
No need to lecture me on the difference between Muslims and Arabs: I myself indicated the difference by referring to the Turkish Association, the members of which are Muslim and also great patriots of this country. Similarly, when I referrred to cultural traits, I was careful to speak of ARabs and not Muslims.
I thank you for the link to your interview. The tape appears to be 2h-long, so I"ll listen when I have more time. Regards, TQ.
800,000 people here, 800,000,000 people there, pretty soon you're talking about a lot of people.
Thanks also for pointing out that there are indeed provisos from the broadly brushed nuke Mecca crowd."
Just wanted to highlight some of the points I especially agree with
We are at war, and I believe, despite the position of President Bush, that this is a war between two civilizations: Western Judaeo-Christian civilization, and Islam.
it is in our national interest to see to it that Islam does not fluorish in America.
Agreed.
However, since America rightfully doesn't treat people as second class citizens based on their religion, there should obviously be no anti-Muslim pogroms or Kristallnachts of the mosques. So long as Muslim citizens abide by our ways, their freedoms should in no way be affected.
Agreed.
Non-citizens are our guests here, and remain in America at our pleasure. Non-citizens who come from a hostile culture that is at war with ours represent an unnecessary theat, with a simple, moral, and perfectly Constitutional solution: deportation.
Agreed. Tho' I think "mass deportation" (for lack of a better term) will remain an ideal rather than a reality due to the seemingly unswerving faith our politicians have in the god of political correctness.
But let's say our politicians recover their collective backbone through the urging of their constituents, the American people, and agree to deportation of Muslim non-citizens. I imagine there would be a logistical nightmare with regards to locating and bringing in each Arab for an interview to determine his/her cultural understandings. Which is not to say it cant be done, but that in addition to orchestrating the large task of gathering the interviewees, the interviewers would have to make personal judgment calls on the hostility quotient of each person. Such a system will not be foolproof.
OK fine...
There are anti-mislim/anti Arab bigots running around here and a lot of the time they get a pass.
I don't know what was wrong with my original comments but maybe that one was better.
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