AMERICA the Right Way--Day 578--REMEMBER THE TRADE CENTER

Various News Sources and FReepers | 8/21/02 | All of us

[Citizen Soldier]

Just how long has your trash been sitting there ?

I hope you don't have to go out and empty the trash like Species does! Back of a pickup truck, with the occasional bear in the truckbed!

[Radix]

Last night we (some of us) out here were talking about books. I wanted to mention to a few persons one of my favorite books. Unfortunately the Sand Man came upon me, and the thread was lost to me.
I want to ask you about something. One of my all time favorite books was "Shogun" by James Clavell. I have actually read this book more than two times.
I have read all of Clavell`s books. I really felt that I learned a lot from " Tai Pan , and Noble House" I was sorry at his passing .He seemed to be fascinated by the Asian cultures.
I think that he was in certain places doing auto biographical stuff. King Rat, and later as a writer/ reporter in his other works. I am very interested in Japanese and Chinese culture thanks to Clavell`s works.
I was wondering if you were familiar with these books and if so if you could or would discuss them. I am not looking for anything very deep. I am just curious as to wether I am more ignorant now than I ever was.

[Miss Marple]

I liked those books...and like you, I learned a lot about Asian culture and history from them. I also would be interested in hearing SY's take on them.

[Mr. Mulliner]

Perhaps I can answer that question for Singapore_Yank since I know him quite well (snicker). Unfortunately, I haven't read any of James Clavell's stuff (and don't think SY has either) so I can't really comment on the particulars.

Asian culture is fascinating, to be sure. I know Asian culture more from living there and intuitively knowing, to some extent, how people think. Some things still drive me crazy because I don't understand it, but I can usually operate OK and not cause myself too much embarrassment.

Does Clavell talk about the idea of "face" in Asia? I find it's one cultural value that Americans often overlook, but which is a major force in determining behavior in Asians. Once you get hold of that concept, you can understand a lot of the otherwise puzzling things that Asians do.

By the way, since this is a political site, I'll bring politics into it. I think, and nearly all of my Chinese friends agree, that America has been making a huge mistake in how we deal with China. We publicly berate China for their human rights record and that causes a loss of face for them. We look at it as just telling the truth, but to China it's a terrible thing that undermines a lot of our efforts to form productive relationships and dialogue with them.

Confucianism is also at the root of Asian worldview in general. The two places I've lived in Asia, however, are not so affected by Confucianism as other countries are. In China, Mao and the Communists undid a lot of the effects of Confucius and in Singapore the western effect, as well as multiculturalism, has lessened the effect of Confucius. Although Confucius was Chinese, his effect is felt much broader than just in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Korea and Japan are also deeply affected by Confucianism.

What does Clavell have to say about Confucius?

[kayak]

Welcome, Newbie! ...... ;-)

I see they let you keep your "born on" date.

[Mr. Mulliner]

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, the change was quite painless and happened much faster than I expected. I first dashed off a freep mail to John Robinson to see if this could even be done and within minutes he wrote asking me what name I wanted. A quick reply and within minutes I had lost my identity and was embarking on life with a clean slate!

[Utah Girl]

Welcome to ATRW! :) What do you think our (the US) response to China's human rights record? Can we get the point across to the Chinese government record on how they treat people needs to change without the govt losing face?

[Mr. Mulliner]

To be honest, I think we've missed so many opportunities to have a positive influence in China for so long that I get kind of discouraged about it. Nixon and Kissinger seemed to have the right idea when they opened relations with China. They understood and clearly stated that our relationship with China would exist only as long as it was mutually beneficial to both sides. What we both gained from that relationship at that time was some needed balance against the Soviet Union.

China was changing quickly so in some ways it's not fair to blame our China policies too much because it was hard to keep up with what was going on. I especially don't fault our policies towards China during the 80s when it was reasonable to assume that China's experiments with capitalism would result in greater political freedom.

Following Tiananmen Square and the brutal suppression of dissent, it should have been clear that China had no intention of letting political power slip from the hands of the Communists. From that point on, I think, our policy of hoping for political change as a result of more trade was quite misguided.

I lived in China for several years when we used to have that annual vote on MFN. There were a few times when it seemed the vote was going to go against renewing it and I think it may have been the best thing if it had. It was at that point, when we would publicly berate China, yell and scream about their human rights records, and then in the end give them what they so desperately wanted that we were making our biggest mistake.

Well, not our biggest mistake, because soon the whole issue of MFN was shelved and we kept feeding our addiction to Chinese markets by increasing trade, but in order to overcome our guilt about it, we shook our fist at China and let everyone know what we thought of some of the things they'd done.

Now I don't know where we go. We're really reliant on trade with China. They've always needed us and benefitted from this relationship. We didn't always need them to the same extent, but didn't know when to fix things or how. If we tried to cut off trade with China now, we'd probably be hurting ourselves beause the rest of the world is certainly going to keep trading with China.

Back to your question, I guess the answer is that we might just look for ways to make our pronouncements a little less public and inflammatory, and to establish good "boundaries" in our relationship with them. Don't really know, though.

[kayak]

AMERICA the Right Way--Day 577--REMEMBER THE TRADE CENTER

Yesterday's Thread (8/20/02)

[kayak]

A little something different today ...... breakfast tacos ...... and some granola for those who don't want to go Western ..... :-)

..........

.

... ...

[Utah Girl]

Hi, kayak!!! Are you getting any rain your way yet? I was surfing past the Weather channel last night, and it said that parts of North Carolina were getting massive amounts of rain.

[kayak]

It's not around here ...... I think maybe there were storms in the eastern part of the state. We did get over three inches in a couple of days last week. That helped lawns but not the long-term drought situation. Many towns around here are on mandatory water restrictions ...... even Charlotte has imposed some, though so far it's only to the extent of limiting hours when people can water their lawns. They actually have Water Police (not the police force but other officials) out checking for violators. The fines will be added to water bills.

[kayak]

My ISP is acting up again ...... *sigh* ...... I'd better get on off of here.

Good night!

[Utah Girl]

Night, my ISP was acting up earlier...

[Vic3O3]

Romans 12:1-2

[Guenevere]

#195...OK, I know & understand these verses...

..just don't understand your reference to them??????