Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
IMO, it is precisely because Frodo's mission was so vital that Aragorn made the decision he did. It was an act of faith on his part. He reasoned that Frodo's destiny was not in his hands because more capable hands were guilding him, not the least Frodo's own will. Remember the words of Gandalf to Frodo about how Bilbo found the Ring, those forces (or that force) was still active, and I think it was that realization, coupled with Frodo's own actions, that led Aragorn to decide that Frodo had passed beyond his aid.
Once Aragorn decided that Frodo was beyond his aid, going after Merry and Pippin was a simple choice to make.
Note that he said "My heart speaks clearly". This means, to me, that is decision was an act of faith, rather than simple logic. This has much to do with things like 'foresight' and assorted other gut reactions that occur in fairly regularly in M-e.
So, I think Aragorn saught to decide with his heart rather than his head, and, being the fine upstanding guy he is, his heart told him true, and he made the right choice in a bad situation.
*Spoiler*
As an aside, I will note that even if Aragorn had decided to go after Frodo, Rohan still would've been saved to help Gondor as Gandalf still would've shown up to confront Wormtongue and heal Theoden. All would've been more or less the same *except* that Aragorn would not have taken the Paths of the Dead and Gondor, ultimately, would probably have fallen at the Battle of Pellenor Feilds.
Tuor
"The second part is called The Two Towers since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor...."
Did Tolkien write that note, or did some nameless editor?
And perhaps *except* Frodo's mission (and its outcome?) would have been altered. Certainly, Aragorn could not have made it to the Mountain of Doom in the manner which Frodo and Sam did. Nor would the capture of Frodo been treated as cavalierly by the Orcs had Aragorn been present (either he or Sam would have been found as well, since only one could wear the ring). His presence could have caused the ring-bearer's mission to go awry in a number of ways.
Maybe that was part of what his "heart" spoke so clearly.
Oooooo.....good question! I don't know. I'll see if I can find out but I'm betting the editor did.
Thanks for adding that comment. When I was trying to discern which "two" towers the title referred to, I thought it was probably referring to Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith.
Really simple reasoning Good vs Evil. However, I also wondered if it were referring to two 'towering' individuals. That leaves lots of other choices???
Don't you think, that like Boromir, relying on strength can sometimes be a problem when confronting the purposes of God??
Tolkien was a man interested in the 'spiritual', and realized that God often uses the --least, or smallest or the foolish to confound the greatest or strongest or the wise?
Just a thought, but I was continually awed by the spiritual depth in these books.
Exactly! Tuor, also his respect for others 'free will'.
Boromir's error was in NOT looking to faith NOR respecting others choices and abilities. Boromir relied on what he could see physically. That's why he seemed to patronize the little Hobbits and did not respect their internal strength.
I don't see the Lord of the Rings books as being distinctly Christian. While there is a spiritual element to them, it never appeared to be me to be Christian. I understand that good versus evil is ultimately about God and Satan, but many works of literature and events in real life have featured that struggle without a distinctly Christian message.
It's fine to do something on faith that God will choose the weak to confound the strong and the foolish to confound the wise when you know that you are following God in making that decision. However, when you really don't have a clear direction from God, I think you need to try your best to put the appropriate people in the appropriate situations. If someone broke into my house at night and I knew that God wanted me to confront the person unarmed, I would do it. Without that clear direction, I'd be holding a revolver.
WFTR
Bill
LOL! - That's funny!
The one he used most often, and is not a concept limited merely to Judeo-Christian theology, is prophecy (telling of the future from the deep past). In this case he uses "legends" and "songs" to pass forward the "prophecies".
And at this point in the story, with Aragorn's decision being critical to what comes after, the role of "prophecy" may be decisive: Aragorn knew intimately all of the prophecies about the King returning to Gondor (this in itself appears to be something based on Judeo-Christian forms) to claim Kingship from the Steward, and how only the rightful King could marshal the Army of the Dead (which was, for those with "eyes" to see it, a test of his rightful claim). And Aragorn knew that is was he who was to make the claim -- though it would have to be very "delicately" handled. Many others in the story, Elrond, Evenstar, Galadriel, Gandalf -- and probably Saruman and Sauron -- were also aware of the prophecies and that they pointed to Aragorn.
I think Aragorn's intimate knowledge of the prophecies and their application to himself was at least one of the reasons he made this particular choice (to go after Merry and Pippin). He knew more about his final role in all this than we are led to believe at this point in the story.
P.S. sorry for the long post -- it didn't start out that way...
Somewhere in a file cabinet far far away I have my freshman research paper entitled "Christlike Symbolism in The Lord of the Rings."
I'm pulling the quote from memory (it's been 25 years), but Tolkien said (if I recall correctly) that, while he did not set out to write a distinctly "Christian" work, that naturally, since he was a Christian, he would write from that viewpoint.
I focused on three characters: Frodo the Deliverer, Gandalf the Resurrected and Aragorn the King.
Well, reading through again, I've thought that. It's even a little more obvious in The Chronicles of Narnia when "Tash" is involved...
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