Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
Yes, I suppose that is the case. That and striving for power (and money, somewhat synonymous). But I guess one could make a rather solid case that selfishness was wrapped up in that as well.
On Entwives, I had wondered the same thing about the Old Forest, but we probably lack any other evidence -- other than the circumstancial matter of animated trees (or tree-like) beings. This line was apparently never developed any further in the story. A sort-of loose end left untied. One of our other problems in this way in the lack of any physical description of Entwives. While we can assume they are something like Ents -- we don't know that for certain. Treebeard never described them to Merry and Pippin, perhaps because Entwives would be rather obvious if the Hobbits ever stumbled across them? There was a lot of the Old Forest that was left unexplored in LotR, and many wild legends about it, from the Hobbit's discussions early in FotR.
At the risk of being flamed, I would like to differ, at least to a degree. After all, the above is one of the main justifications for socialism.
I only see selfishness as a problem when it causes the direct suffering of others. Most of the time, though, it works to the general benefit of mankind. Individuals following their own personal dreams, working to make something of themselves, striving to achieve accomplishments of which they can be proud, these are what a free society allows, what make possible most advancements in medicine, science, standard of living, etc.
On the other hand, socialist societies, in which everyone unselfishly works for the "common good" instead of for themselves, have been responsible for more suffering and hardship in the twentieth century alone than in the entire history of mankind. They have been responsible for the execution of more than 100 million human beings.
Well if they're anything like humans, there will be some major differences, at least in the way they think.
In some respects you are right, however, I do see a difference between 'selfishness', and self-interest. Don't know, might be picking a nit here.
The other point, most Socialist/Communist societies built their following by selling the idea to the lower eshelons that this would make them equal to their 'betters', so from this perspective, they thought they were going to get something for nothing.
I see socialism as one of the "high places" of selfishness: While it preaches equality, the practice of socialism yields a small oligarchy of elites with unlimited access to luxury and favor, much of it acquired "on the backs" of the "common people". It is the "Dacha" society.
I see in socialism selfishness in the extreme form. That it preaches a different creed is merely a representation of another quality of socialism: Hypocrisy. (Viewable also in the commentary of many American political figures, particularly in the Democrat Party).
I'm heading to Took's Corner now. I know that's where I'm going to be sent. See you there. We'll see if there any Entwives or Sasquatches there...
I do believe completely everything I said in #422 and even suppose it's fairly obvious once you think about it. Though it's taken me awhile to think through it.
However I also believe that humans are not constructed in such a way that they can be truly happy or know true joy by being selfish. I think most of us hope that the fulfillment of our personal dreams can be of some benefit to others as well, we hope that our personal accomplishments will in some way be helpful to society at large, even if that is not their primary purpose. Our founding fathers recognized this when they spoke of the need of a "virtuous people" for the success of a free society.
I doubt if I'd find much joy in any of the many things that bring me pleasure and fulfillment if I could not share them with those whom I love. What fun is there in watching FOTR alone, for instance, when you can watch with someone you care about? This thread actually demonstrates that (will that keep us out of Took's Corner?) pretty well.
Some folks get ahead by trickery and cheating, by stepping on others, but I doubt they get real joy (or even know what it is) from their success. Perhaps they can experience a grim satisfaction.
And I agree, socialism, because it makes possible the dominion of free wills by another (I think that's almost a direct quote from Tolkien ;-), attracts the people who are ultimately the most selfish, people who desire power for its own sake.
Forgive me for going on so, and probably sounding pompous while I was about it. I've been trying to get my mind around these seemingly conflicting concepts for most of a year.
Well, we're definitely off topic, I'll see you guys in Took's corner, I guess. Why did you bring this up anyway, LinnieBeth? :-)
Brilliant Move! Absolutely Brilliant! Your quoting the author here has probably kept us out of Took's Corner.
At least we'll have an arguable case.
It is generally believed among Christians (AFAIK) that Pride is the Original Sin, and that it is Pride that can be found at the root of all other sinful acts.
In the case of Saruman, he became first proud of himself, then disdainful of others and, being of a higher order than any other found in Middle-earth, he came to hold its inhabitants in contempt. As a result, his values shifted until they became more or less the same as Sauron's to the point that he attempted to learn how to fashion a Ring for himself or to get his hands on the One itself.
The concept of pride, and especially overwheening pride, is something I always keep in mind when reading Tolkien (who talks about it in detail in The Tolkien Reader).
Tuor
Socialism is the use of government to *force* "fairness" and "compassion". There are many fools who believe that the government can be entrusted to know just what is fair and compassionate, when in reality the powerful consider such subjects mere labels to use in order to augment their own power. That is, socialism is a lie told by the powerful to fool the weak into accepting their lot in life.
Ideally, people would *of their own free will* choose to be fair, honest, and compassionate. These would then be *real* emotions and have real positive effects. Even the most self-centered individual might then come to see the benefits of helping others if only so that they may at some point be helped in turn (life is strange, and the wise make plans for the unexpected).
In socialism, only the absolute fools really believe their 'unselfish' work helps anyone. Most pay their taxes, accept their wages, and go about their lives as they do out of fear, not altrusim: fear of losing what little they have to a State that is answerable to no one, least of all them. This results in depression, overall poor production, lack of innovation, and a general decline in the overall society, as we saw in the former USSR.
Capitalism and excessive self-centeredness has its own ills, but they are generally not the same as the ills caused by Socialism/Communism.
The main point is that without a moral compass, economic theories and strategies are worthless. An immoral people will always eventually fail, IMO.
Tuor
The Shire under the control of Lotho and Saruman, with all that gathering and 'sharing' and a lot of stupid rules is a good example of what I am talking about. While this subject wont come up for some time yet, it *is* applicable here.
Tuor
Scott ftwC wrote: "I see in socialism selfishness in the extreme form. That it preaches a different creed is merely a representation of another quality of socialism: Hypocrisy."
Tuor Wrote: "that Pride is the Original Sin, and that it is Pride that can be found at the root of all other sinful acts."
Boy, howdy, we've got some good commentary going here! Digging for 'root causes' and their effects. Think Tolkien wrote in such a way, and with so much forethought that he meant to provoke his readers to probe for the deeper meaning of personalities and events and how -Pride leading to Selfishness, or Selfishness leading to Pride - (which comes first, the...) but how one's individual choices can affect all the world....eventually.
Great comments & True fellow freepers. The one thing that sticks out all over here, and in our own politics is this;
A rejection of a Godly 'STANDARD' and an adoption of a Standard created by oneself will lead one down that rosy path to Peredition.
Loved all your comments guys ?. There IS a hypocracy anywhere you reject God's truth and replace it with your own; which is what I see in Socialism; the elites designing a system in which they are above it all, and selling it to people who want it all. And, on both sides of that bargain - the Pride of Selfishness and the Rejection of a dependence on God.
Odd don't you think? that Tolkien's LorR inspires such plumbing for the deeper, more meaningful questions of Life- ones that seem to find the most meaningful answers by looking into The Standard.
And..returning to Sam's comment- and something that I preached to my son's - Don't every seek happiness, but Joy. Happiness is temporal and self-serving, Joy bubbles up form our inward parts because we have done/thought/behaved Rightly.
You must have posted while I was typing. And you are right - humans are not capable of determining "Fairness", we can deal Justly and rest that an ultimante Justice awaits us all.
Here again is a contrast- Justice vs.Fairness
as the difference between Joy vs Happiness.
Always one side born by acceptance of The Standard, the other born in our own minds.
Sounds kind of familiar somehow. This whole discussion is reminding me why I dislike the democrats so much and admire our founding fathers equally much.
"There are many fools who believe that the government can be entrusted to know just what is fair and compassionate, when in reality the powerful consider such subjects mere labels to use in order to augment their own power.
Another good description to the Democrats and the Left.
Sounds good, Overtaxed.
Yes, I think so too.
guys ? That is a correct description (regarding me), happily married to a beautiful lady for 28 years, 2 kids in college.
I'm not really up to speed on the "pride as a sin" tradition, though obviously excessive pride must be one. But isn't some pride necessary as self respect of the body and soul God gave us? I think there's a difference between pride and arrogance. I'm probably messing up contexts out of ignorance here.
I've really been enjoying this discussion, thanks guys.
If you make it, they will come.
I said "guys" because all your names seemed male, I am a 55 yo lady, 33 yrs married PTL, sons grown and gone.
Hey there Tuor- you seem to be an early riser too, I'm on the East Coast - Georgia, where are you? Lin
Instead of beer, do you have a Margarita?
I'm not an early riser, but a later sleeper. I live in Seattle and work grave shift, so I'm usually up for a while once I get home from work.
Tuor
33 year old male native Seattlite.
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