LoTR-The Two Towers: Book discussion (The Green Dragon Inn) III

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.

We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.

It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.

Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!

[doubled]

IIRC, when the hobbits are discussing going into the Old Forest, Merry talks of tales of how the trees move and the path shifts. This is a lot like the hourons(sp) that come into our story soon.

[LinnieBeth]

...I recanted most of my misgivings about it after seeing it again, when the things that are very good began to outweigh the things that were not exactly right.

Amen, the first time I saw it, I was so over whelmed, and trying to figure out who was who, and what was what that I wasn't real impressed with the movie, I bought the soundtrack and that is dynamite! And now having seen it a couple more times on a small screen, I think it is a masterpiece. On the large screen I just couldn't focus on more that a few things at a time, on a small screen you can see so much more.

By all means, see it again, and then post your 30 unfavorite things.

[Alkhin]

But the funny thing is I consider myself very artistic and left-brained (pictoral). I have often attempted to draw and paint, and photograph things. But I think I learned to read with my right brain and not my left. I capture the words and the concepts but they don't necessarily lead to images. In that way I think the film has helped me appreciate the imagery in Tolkien's writing that I neglected to try and "see" with my mind's eye before, but can now see clearly with both sides of my brain when I read the books. The landscape of the Shire, and Moria. And ... Well, I find my imagination strengthened by the images in the film, not lessened. I have very high hopes that the same will be true for TTT.

Gads, you sound like me. I really looked forward to seeing the movie, because it was always hard for me to get a picture in my mind of what Middle Earth looked like, although I daresay I was rather spoiled by Bakshi's version of the hobbits (which really werent too bad...it was the acting and animation that was a real bummer). But aside from Frodo, I had a very hard time imagining what teh other three hobbits would look like. I think thats what sets us apart from the other fans who quibble about the details...we were more open to the interpretation because we hadn't any preconcieved notions about Middle Earth.

That and I was just so darn thankful that Aragorn actually turned out to be GOOD LOOKING! I had serious doubts about him, but MAN O MAN...! WOOO!

[Sam Cree]

I don't know what a nurse log is, but come to think of it, this area has trees called Mangroves, that definitely have legs, many of them. Only, I think of the ents as being two legged.

I don't have trouble imagining the head and face, it's easy enough to see a face in a gnarled old oak or poplar, what with all those knots and lumps and things that they get.

I think maybe the entwives are definitely MIA.

[Alkhin]

From one of my earlier posts

From the book quote:'I suppose you haven't lost us already?' said Pippin, leaning back against a great tree-trunk.

LOL LOL!! What a sly sense of humor. Whenever I read about Fanghorn and Treebeard, I can't help be remember all the stuff with the Old Forest and the Willow..and how Merry was supposed to be the one to know how to get through it...and yet they got hopelessly lost. I get the feeling this would be something that Pippin would not let Merry live down.

I immediately thought that maybe Entwives may be still wandering around the Shire, but then again, it could have been the Old Forest magic again too. Treebeard's sense of time, as he so aptly explained to the hobbits, is a bit off from everything else. My impression was that in Treebeard's mind, their disappearance may have have happened only 'yesterday'...but it could have been ages ago according to everyone else's time, with the exception of the Elves, and even those, Treebeard said the Elves were very new to him...and that the Elves learned from the Ents.

A difference say, of 65 million years ago as opposed to only 2 million.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think I was open to Jackson's interpretation because he got the vital messages right... And by the second view I allowed it to be another telling of the same story... Any of us would tell the story differently if we told it to a dear friend from memory, with different favorite parts highlighted and expanded, and some parts left out.

That is how I see Jackson's interpretation... It isn't meant to be an exact duplicate of the book, but one account told by a fan who loved the story too and wanted to translate it as best he could in pictures... the visuals were so carefully crafted...

It is sortof like the books of the Gospel. They each tell the same story in a slightly different way.

[HairOfTheDog]

A nurse log... It is common to see trees where the nurse log has entirely rotted away, living the roots supporting the tree in thin air....

[Sam Cree]

"That is how I see Jackson's interpretation... It isn't meant to be an exact duplicate of the book, but one account told by a fan who loved the story too and wanted to translate it as best he could in pictures... the visuals were so carefully crafted... "

Yes.

[LinnieBeth]

Hair your pic of Nurse Log sure makes a good pic of an Ent foot!
BTW, Were you referring to Tolkien's reading of the Ent song and his Haroomping or was there a link of the TTT's Treebeard's voice?

[Scott from the Left Coast]

Them's the legs.

There's one near us, on the McLane Park Nature Trail, where you actually walk on the trail underneath the roots, where a very large nurse log has completely rotted away. The space beneath the beginning of the trunk is over 6 feet tall. And the roots on either side look like large legs (after enough beer, that is).

[HairOfTheDog]

No - I was talking about Tolkien when he reads that part!

The actor who plays Gimli will be doing Treebeard's voice.... What do you think of that?

[LinnieBeth]

The actor who plays Gimli will be doing Treebeard's voice....

I loved John Rhys-Davis as "The Spaniard" in Shogun -- when I heard he was to be Gimli, I was glad- he can have such a mischievious personality, but to make such a big guy a dwarf-- well, the photography in this film is a marvel unto itself.
It will be interesting to hear him as Treebeard. I would have guessed they would use a voice more like James Earl Jones's...but I've been really pleased with the casting so far, bet it works.

[Tuor]

I was wondering if you have enjoyed any of the paintings or illustrations of Middle Earth?

Well, I do like Tolkien's own drawings of M-e. Other than him, I like some of Ted Naismith's(sp?) works -- he has very good clarity -- and a little of John Howe's paintings. I *despise* the Brothers Hildebrant's(sp) stuff in its entirety: I find it juvenille to the point of insult.

I have kept the version of paperback LotR that has Tolkien's drawings as cover art and box set art; I refuse to get another set (as the current one is looking a bit worn) until they go back to Tolkien's art (I really *am* a purist, after all) and *absolutely* refuse to buy any of the books that has *film* pictures on the cover -- bleh!

Tuor

[Sam Cree]

I've usually liked Alan Lee's paintings the best, his watercolors evoke for me a feeling that fits very well with JRRT's written word. I also like Howe and Nasmith, who is my son's favorite. Nasmith's version of the valley of Rivendell seems closer to the written description, though Overtaxed, I think, posted a version by Tolkien that more closely resembled that of Alan Lee (the inspiration for the movie version, I think).

I like what I've seen of Tolkien's own paintings well enough, but I do think that his skills at writing far surpass his painting skills. Which is to say that the above mentioned paint alot better than does Tolkien.

[Corin Stormhands]

I would have guessed they would use a voice more like James Earl Jones's...

Too Darth Vader-ish...

[Overtaxed]

I found a site that has a bunch of Tolkien art with drawings/paintings done by JRRT himself. Unfortunately, I couldn't find one of Treebeard done by Tolkien. Here's the link: Art Gallery

[Sam Cree]

That's an interesting site. Tolkien seems to have quite an eye for composition, you'd think that if he'd devoted his life to painting instead of languages and writing, he could have been great at that also.

This one in particular, of Old Man Willow, strikes me.

[Sam Cree]

Was at the cyclotron (or whatever it's called) in Atlanta last week and saw a video on the Battle of Atlanta witha VO by Jones. The video was lousy, but his voice is great.

[Sam Cree]

"Unfortunately, I couldn't find one of Treebeard done by Tolkien."

Tolkien probably had trouble "visualizing" him.

[LinnieBeth]

Moving on in our aquaintance with Treebeard.
Merry and Pippin have just been giving an account of their journey ( The Ring ommitted from tale).

He (Treebeard) was immensely interested in everything: in the Black Riders, in Elrond, and Rivendell, in the Old Forest and Tom Bombadil, in the mines of Moria, and in Lothlorien and Galadriel. He made them describe the Shire and its country over and over again. He said an odd thing at this point. 'You never see any -hm- Ents around there, do you?' he asked. 'Well, not Ents, Entwives I should really say.'

'Entwives?' said Pippin. 'Are they like you at all?'

'Yes, -hm- well no: I do not really know now,' said Treebeard Thoughtfully. But they would like your country, so I just wondered.'

I think this illustrates that Tolkien through Treebeard encouraged all of us to hope and to think that the Old Forest did indeed have a population of Entwives.

As the story continues, they discuss the Council, and Gandalf, and Saruman, then Treebeard discusses the coming of The Wizards- and makes this comment about Saruman.

Saruman was reckloned great amoung them, I believe. He gave up wandering about and minding the affairs of Men and Elves, ....

Indicating that Saruman gave up his job?

Then Treebeard continues...."I used to talk to him. There was a time when he was always walking about my woods. He was polite in those days, always asking my leave (at least when he met me); and always eager to listen. I told him many things that he would never have found out by himself; but he (Saruman) never repaid me in like kind.

I see this as explaining about the time that Saruman was going 'rotten'. Becoming Selfish and Self-Centered. The root of most of mankind's problems don't you think?