Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title! post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. post 1011 HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant? post 1024 Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters
Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock post 2401 Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire post 2506 - 2Jedismom
Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol) post 2519 Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole
; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
Any further news on the rumor that our cast has something outlandish planned for the Oscars?
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"Tolkien, Hitler, and Nordic Heroism
By J.P. Zmirak
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 20, 2001
A SHADOWY, evil overlord hides himself amid an unmapped mountain range. There he wields absolute power over fanatics and slaves, scheming for domination over the free peoples of the world. He sends forth assassins into peaceful lands and cities, spreading terror among civilians.
A capsule history of the past six months? No, thats the plot of the movie Im going to see tonightThe Lord of the Rings. Director Peter Jackson (Heavenly Creatures, 1994) could not have known how timely its release would provecoming as it does as America hunts down a terror network built on a theology of evil, a perversion of Islam which promises eternal sensual reward for the reckless slaughter of civilians. The Lord of the Rings speaks to current events. It also touches on the most important themes of Western civilizationfreedom, faith, and what it means to be a hero.
The Birth of Middle Earth
As a teenager, J.R.R. Tolkien neglected his Latin and Greek to study Norse. And Finnish. And Anglo-Saxon. Tolkien thrilled at studying medieval eddas and sagas, and mastering dusty grammars to decode half-forgotten tales. At Oxford, he made himself the universitys expert in Nordic literature, and won a prestigious chair which hed hold for the next four decades.
What attracted Tolkien to these tales was their unique, heroic ethos. Written down by recently Christianized barbarians, stories such as Beowulf and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight intertwined the old, pagan values of individualism, courage and promise-keeping with Biblical themes of self-sacrifice, defense of the helpless, and piety towards the One God. Thus were the warriors of the North civilized, and urged to restrain their swords by the codes of Hebrew prophets and Christian theologians. The grandsons of the Viking raiders began to bind themselves to the Ten Commandments and Augustines "just war" theory.
Tolkien saw in this literature a great, unsung moment in the birth of the West. Like the Baron de Montesquieu, Tolkien saw as specifically "Nordic" the individualism and hatred for tyranny that pervades these sagas, which set medieval and modern man apart from the obedient subjects of Rome and Byzantium. (See David Gress From Plato to NATO for more on this fascinating connection.)
This freemans spirit survived for centuries in the stubborn cantons of Switzerland, the "free cities" of the Holy Roman Empire, and the gentry of England; the privileges won by Anglo-Saxons from their kings formed the basis of English Common Law, and its great modern descendantthe U.S. Bill of Rights. (See Wilhelm Röpkes The Social Crisis of Our Time and Russell Kirks The Roots of American Order for documentation and analysis.)
The work of Tolkiens close friend C.S. Lewis also refers to "the North" as the source of individualism and resistance to unjust authority; in The Chronicles of Narnia, his heroes battle cry is "for Narnia and the North." In Narnia, as in The Lord of the Rings, the heroes were based on medieval, Northern European knights, who fought for free societies based on tradition, custom, and courageagainst slave armies recruited from southern climes, who carried scimitars, lived in the desert, and cringed before Oriental despots. (Of course, that brings us back to current events...)
The Modern Barbarians
It is ironic that even as Tolkien wrote to immortalize the great synthesis of Northern heroism with Biblical morality, modern barbarians labored to reverse it. The proto-Nazi "Völkisch" movement, born in the blood and humiliation of Napoleons conquest of Germany, had for a century agitated against Judaeo-Christian "softness," in favor of pagan ruthlessness. (Peter Vierecks Metapolitics [Capricorn, 1961] traces this re-barbarization of German thought in the 19th century.) Völkisch boosters of Nordic literature ignored its heroic individualism in favor of its residues of pagan tribalism, "deconstructing" the Judaeo-Christian elements as "inauthentic" overlays on the "pure" originals. The artistic pinnacle of this project appeared in Wagners grand operas, based on "pure" pagan sources. Its political apogee came with the victory of a Völkish-socialist demagogue in Germany.
While Adolf Hitler was careful at first to conceal his neo-pagan agenda, his followers were not: Heinrich Himmler created the SS explicitly as a pagan parody of the Society of Jesus, conducted extensive research attempting to rehabilitate medieval witchcraft, and held torchlit liturgies to Odin and other Norse gods. Hitlers ideologist, Alfred Rosenberg, issued tracts denouncing the Gospels. Josef Goebbels aspired to wipe out "after the last Jew, the last priest." Hitlers ally, General Erich Ludendorff, called for the abolition of Christianity in Germany. By 1936, Hitler was suppressing Catholic trade unions, movements and schools, and forming amongst Protestants a militaristic "German Christian" church that would sanction the regimes savage anti-Semitism. Hitler opined to Albert Speer that he wished Germany had been converted to Islam instead of Christianity, the better to suit it to ruthless warfare.
Fighting for the True North
As a fervent Catholic, a veteran of the Somme, and a genuine scholar of Nordic cultures, Tolkien was not blind to these events. In 1938, Tolkien denounced the Nazis "wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." When German publishers Rütten and Loening wished to translate The Hobbit from English, they wrote him, inquiring whether his name was of "Aryan" origin. Tolkiens reply dripped scorn:
I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is, Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
As he would write his son, Michael, in 1941 (then a cadet training for the British army):
...I have in this War a burning private grudgewhich would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler... Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble, northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light. Nowhere, incidentally, was it nobler than in England, nor ever more early sanctified and Christianized.
We see in Tolkiens life, opinions, and work an enduring rebuff to the totalitarian evils of his century. The moral key to The Lord of the Rings is the refusal of ruthlessness and the immutability of the moral law. The Ring is a mighty weapon of warbut profoundly tinged with evil. The Ring may not be used, even against the Dark Lord himself, lest its user be corrupted and become what he hates. Some means are so evil that no end can justify them. Some laws are so sacred that we must willingly die rather than violate them. We may never target the innocent in order to weaken the guilty. These lessons, which Tolkien drew from the Christian, heroic sagas of the North, should linger in our minds and restrain our passionsespecially in time of war.
Mr. Zmirak is author of Wilhelm Röpke: Swiss Localist, Global Economist, a study of the free-market economist who was architect of the post-war German economic "miracle."
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A bit heavy; however I liked this guy's style.
Since 2JM is not here to plug the egroup, I will. Many have already joined our FreeRepublic Hobbit Hole egroup. It is a private place, so FReepmail me,JenB,ecurbh,Penny1 or any of the regulars for instructions on joining.
It has a chat room
But we also have a lot of cool stuff there.
A common place for us to share all our mathoms we have picked up.
I still am browsing through all the photos and files folk have put there!
We gather and chat there sometimes, and it is a good place to join us for the Oscars coming up, as well as other times when we just want to chit/chat without going to the trouble to put it in print!
excerpts I like:
...It also touches on the most important themes of Western civilizationfreedom, faith, and what it means to be a hero......The moral key to The Lord of the Rings is the refusal of ruthlessness and the immutability of the moral law. The Ring is a mighty weapon of warbut profoundly tinged with evil. The Ring may not be used, even against the Dark Lord himself, lest its user be corrupted and become what he hates. Some means are so evil that no end can justify them. Some laws are so sacred that we must willingly die rather than violate them. We may never target the innocent in order to weaken the guilty. These lessons, which Tolkien drew from the Christian, heroic sagas of the North, should linger in our minds and restrain our passionsespecially in time of war...
Misapplied patriotism sometimes tempts us to compromise our highest principles because of tough choices. But we mus'nt. Principles are made for times of tough choices and tests. To guide us when choices are harder to make.
Now, what about that does Boromir not get?
Whew... will need some pints after all that thinking!
Sometimes we need to have compassion and understanding when these characters are revealed as frail and flawed (just like people in real life) Most posters (this is only my take) have two thoughts. The characters either aren't flawed at all or too flawed...
But to me, Tolkien did a good job of presenting his characters with strength and weaknesses and he stayed true to those strengths and weaknesses, which is what makes the story riveting.
If after reading the chapter The Council of Elrond you didn't believe that Boromir would try to gain the ring for Gondor's defense then you weren't paying attention. (Not you HOTD -- that's a rhetorical you). The fact that he did, was wonderful. Then... just in life (with some people) understanding came... with understanding came changes.
Even an adequate patriot ought to be able to see that evil cannot ever be used to conquer evil, only replace it.
We have a lot to learn from Boromir of course. And his place in the story (IMHO) is to encourage us to confront our own curiosity about temptation.
After seeing LOTR twice I have just started re-reading (after about, oh, a 25-year break) the trilogy. Expect I may be hanging out here some, at least in lurk mode.:)
The big problem was Boromir usurping his brother Faramir's call. Both Faramir and Boromir were called in dreams (Boromir once, Faramir several times) to go to Imaldris and seek Isildur's Bane. Had Faramir gone, things might have proceeded differently for the Fellowship (not that it didn't work out all right in the end).
Also look for the Green Dragon Inn to be moved over tomorrow. It is a Chapter-by-Chapter more structured discussion... maybe on your re-read you can read along with us! - we do a chapter per week, starting on Fridays. We will be starting Chapter 5 of FoTR tommorrow. Not so far along that it would be hard to catch up.
I believe that at the Council of Elrond, Boromir just wasn't convinced the ring was evil. Isildur died before it could corrupt him, Boromir never actually saw what it did to Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo had the ring for years and they looked all right. Only when it tried to corrupt him, did he believe.
I believe that at the Council of Elrond, Boromir just wasn't convinced the ring was evil. Isildur died before it could corrupt him, Boromir never actually saw what it did to Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo had the ring for years and they looked all right. Only when it tried to corrupt him, did he believe.
If Faramir had gone, then from a writer's point of view, Tolkien would have to find some other catalyst to get Frodo to leave.
Of course, I'm oversimplifying the plot. Tolkien (as genius as he was) could have given Frodo a million different reasons to leave...
But, through the character of Boromir so much is linked. Gondor, Aragorn, the White City, Boromir's frustration of being the one always having to defend Middle Earth (with only Rohan to help). Again, that narrow mindedness on Boromir's part that only Gondor defended Middle Earth just wasn't true. But to Boromir it was. That's why he wanted the ring. Gondor was failing, was falling... and there wasn't enough men left to defend it. So, he needed something stronger than the enemy to defeat the enemy. The ring was perfect. It was his only hope.
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