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"The clergy successfully preached the doctrines of patience and pusillanimity; the active virtues of society were discouraged; and the last remains of military spirit were buried in the cloister. A large portion of public and private wealth was consecrated to the specious demands of charity and devotion, and the soldiers’ pay was lavished on the useless multitudes of both sexes who could only plead the merits of abstinence and chastity. Faith, zeal, curiosity, and more earthly passions of malice and ambition kindled the flame of theological factions, whose conflicts were sometimes bloody and always implacable; the attention of the emperors was diverted from camps to synods; the Roman world was oppressed by a new species of tyranny, and the persecuted sects became the secret enemies of the country.”",

I consider Gibbons conclusions as actually detrimental to both the study of the Roman Empire and to the west I'm general as this above extract is used by numerous Mohammedans to criticize Christianity

1 posted on 07/23/2025 3:13:24 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

bkmk


2 posted on 07/23/2025 3:21:23 AM PDT by linMcHlp
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To: Cronos

Gibbon’s work is colored by an Enlightenment-era skepticism toward organized religion, particularly Catholicism, which he often portrays as superstitious, dogmatic, and detrimental to the Roman Empire’s stability:

Gibbon argues that Christianity undermined the Roman Empire by promoting pacifism, otherworldliness, and a rejection of civic virtues (e.g., Volume 1, Chapter 15). He suggests that the Church diverted resources and loyalty from the state to ecclesiastical concerns. This oversimplifies the complex socio-political factors of Rome’s decline—such as economic instability, barbarian invasions, and internal corruption—while scapegoating Christianity.

Historians, like Christopher Dawson (The Making of Europe), argue that the Church preserved Roman culture through its institutions, monasteries, and legal traditions, fostering continuity rather than collapse.

Gibbon romanticizes pagan Roman culture, implying that Christianity supplanted a vibrant religious system (Volume 1, Chapter 2). In reality, paganism was already declining due to internal inconsistencies and lack of institutional cohesion, as noted by scholars like Peter Brown (The World of Late Antiquity).

Gibbon’s deistic leanings lead him to view miracles and divine providence with skepticism, dismissing accounts in Christian sources like Eusebius or Lactantius as fabrications (Volume 1, Chapter 15). Catholic theology, rooted in the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, holds that divine intervention is compatible with historical events. Gibbon’s rejection of the supernatural distorts his analysis of Christianity’s appeal and influence.

Gibbon’s focus on the Western Roman Empire’s fall overlooks the Eastern (Byzantine) Empire, where Christianity and imperial authority coexisted for centuries. This omission undermines his thesis, as the Eastern Church’s integration with the state, as described by scholars like John Meyendorff (Byzantine Theology), suggests Christianity was not inherently destructive to empire.


3 posted on 07/23/2025 3:39:33 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

Gibbons is pretty good at reconstructing the dynamics at work in the Roman Empire but some of his conclusions are a bit off.

Not sure that Christianity weakened the empire as much as he claims but it did add one further division into an already collapsing system and the pure Christianity of the time was badly at odds with the violence and warfare of the pagan world at the time.

Christianity prevailed, but at a high cost

Western Civilization was the end result of this process and it worked out pretty good until we destroyed it


4 posted on 07/23/2025 3:43:13 AM PDT by rdcbn1 (TV )
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To: Cronos

I have heard archeologists say that Gibbons is considered worthless as far as his conclusions but very valuable for his collection of historical references, which he ignored in drawing his conclusions.


6 posted on 07/23/2025 3:56:59 AM PDT by Varda
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To: Cronos
I think this Italian professor was more correct than homosexual Gibbon…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8438210/Fall-of-Roman-Empire-caused-by-contagion-of-homosexuality.html
7 posted on 07/23/2025 4:02:14 AM PDT by Jan_Sobieski (Sanctification)
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To: Cronos

We have an ancestor mentioned during the crusades in the collection so I bought a set.


8 posted on 07/23/2025 4:02:45 AM PDT by ansel12 ((NATO warrior under Reagan, and RA under Nixon, bemoaning the pro-Russians from Vietnam to Ukraine.))
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To: Cronos

I think it is still relevant, but not in every way as you rightly point out.

BTW, IIRC, Gibbons was a raging Tory and was not in any way friendly to the American Revolution, but I know he was a man of his time in England.

It is a useful book, though, but shouldn’t be swallowed wholly...anymore. It once was.


9 posted on 07/23/2025 4:11:15 AM PDT by rlmorel (Factio Communistica Sinensis Delenda Est.)
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To: Cronos

It’s still essential reading, if only for its literary merit, which is unsurpassed.


12 posted on 07/23/2025 4:39:28 AM PDT by Romulus ( )
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To: Cronos

Not sure who said every great library includes a full set of Gibbons - unread.

The people who cherry pick one of his descriptions and debate whether he was right or wrong are wasting our time.

Gibbons Decline is the greatest history and the greatest description of the human condition ever written.

It’s massive and covers approx. 1500 years of history. Therein he unleashes hundreds of truisms on behavior.

If he discussed religion as a contributing factor to the fall of Rome, he also discussed it softening the fall.

As for using him to defend Islam, that would be extremely difficult for anyone who reads the history of Islam in his massive work.

Decline is endlessly full of human and epic stories and you read and can’t imagine they haven’t been turned into great movies.


16 posted on 07/23/2025 5:04:48 AM PDT by Williams (Thank God for the election of President Trump!)
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To: Cronos

The EurAsian horse tribes are rarely mentioned in connection with the fall of both the Western Roman Empire, or the Eastern Roman Empire a thousand years later.
These horse tribes coming out of the Steppe had an enormous impact on all of Europe’s history, constantly pillaging Eastern and Central Europe, not unlike the rampages of the Vikings in the West a thousand years later.


19 posted on 07/23/2025 6:19:17 AM PDT by Thapsus_epiphany (Socialism is a prison, Communism is a death camp )
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To: Cronos

The focus on the Roman empire is natural due to its central place in the history of western civilization; but the fact is, all empires rise and fall, so Rome is not extraordinary in this respect. A more stable federal form of government of the provinces would have helped, and a systematic provision for succession as well.
Hard to remain strong when you have to have civil strife every time the emperor dies.


22 posted on 07/23/2025 6:39:52 AM PDT by hinckley buzzard ( Resist the narrative. )
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mark


23 posted on 07/23/2025 7:15:38 AM PDT by Bigg Red ( Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.)
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To: Cronos; rdcbn1; P.O.E.; Jan_Sobieski; Romulus; Williams; hinckley buzzard; SMARTY
Gibbon’s books had one important value for the US. Toward the end of the Revolution after Yorktown but before the peace treaty, George Washington’s officers in March 1783 were determined to confront the Continental Congress with a list of truly legitimate, morally imperative grievances this body had ignored.

Washington opposed this initiative, which for him was brought into focus by publication in 1776 of the first volume of Edward Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. He foresaw in this undertaking an outcome similar to successful generals of the empire leading their legions to Rome to prevent any meaningful expressions of the Roman Republic. The officers agreed at least to assemble to hear him once more.

24 posted on 07/23/2025 7:49:33 AM PDT by Retain Mike ( Sat Cong)
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To: Cronos
But the decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the causes of destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident had removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of its ruin is simple and obvious; and, instead of inquiring why the Roman empire was destroyed, we should rather be surprised that it had subsisted so long.

Every time I read Gibbon's general exposition of causes for Rome's decline, I experience discomfort as to America's prospects. Our conquests have largely been in the world marketplace and global political intrigues.. But these have no less led to resentment from abroad.

Meanwhile, we are increasingly occupied with internal factionalism... Madison's great fear...I am feeling more uneasy now than I did as a kid during the hide-under-your-desk drills at school.

27 posted on 07/23/2025 8:10:08 AM PDT by PerConPat (The politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both ears to the ground.- Mencken)
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To: Cronos
Your quote from Gibbon was a strong influence (directly or indirectly) on later thinkers such as Carlyle, Adams, Nietzsche, and Spengler. All of them concluded that at their height, cultures are defined by a belief in hierarchy, the martial virtues, and social order, while civilizations in collapse abandon these in favor of egalitarian ideologies that protect or even favor the marginalized, the sick, and the weak.

There is little doubt that early Christianity in Rome, i.e. Pauline Christianity that taught the innate worth of every human being, no matter how despised and practically useless, was quite alien to the ethos of the Romans. It's for this reason that this aspect of Christian teachings had to be downplayed once Constantine adopted it as the religion of the empire, i.e. when it became the faith not just of the slaves and the poor, but of the nobility as well.

29 posted on 07/23/2025 8:41:20 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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