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To: Petrosius
Some may have made that assumption but not I. I think of For years he has spoken of Ukraine as a made-up Putin as an old-fashioned Russian nationalist of the Tsarist stripe.country, that recognizing its independence was Lenin's mistake. Putin is not alone in this way of thinking; many other Russians have voiced their opinion that Ukraine is really just a part of Russia.

Different parts of the area that is today Ukraine were invaded and occupied in the 1st millennium BCE by the Cimmerians, Scythians, and Sarmatians and in the 1st millennium CE by the Goths, Huns, Bulgars, Avars, Khazars, and Magyars (Hungarians). Slavic tribes settled there after the 4th century. Kyiv was the chief town. The Mongol conquest in the mid-13th century decisively ended Kyivan power.

From the 14th to the 18th century, portions of Ukraine were ruled by Lithuania, Poland, and Russia. In addition, Cossacks controlled a largely self-governing territory known as the Hetmanate. Most of Ukraine fell to Russian rule in the 18th century.

In consequence, by the Treaty of Perpetual Peace, signed in 1686, the eastern portion of Ukraine (east of the Dnieper River) was to come under Russian rule, 146,000 rubles were to be paid to Poland as compensation for the loss of right-bank Ukraine.

Following the Partitions of Poland (1772–1795) and the Russian conquest of the Crimean Khanate, the Russian Empire and Habsburg Austria were in control of all the territories that constitute present-day Ukraine for over a hundred years. Ukrainian nationalism developed in the 19th century.

A chaotic period of warfare ensued after the Russian Revolutions of 1917, as well as, a simultaneous war in the former Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria following the dissolution of the Habsburg monarchy after World War I. The Soviet–Ukrainian War (1917–1921) followed, in which the Bolshevik Red Army established control in late 1919. The Ukrainian Bolsheviks, who had defeated the national government in Kiev, established the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which on 30 December 1922 became one of the founding republics of the Soviet Union. Initial Soviet policy on the Ukrainian language and Ukrainian culture made Ukrainian the official language of administration and schools. Policy in the 1930s turned to Russification.

Vladimir Lenin, the leader of the Bolshevik Revolution, had a complex and evolving stance on Ukraine’s independence. While Lenin initially supported Ukrainian independence, his views shifted over time, and he ultimately recognized Ukraine as a part of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine's existence was short lived under Lenin, who was not the Tsar of Russia. It lasted only until the Bolshevik Revolution had triumphed in Ukraine. So, I question your statement regarding his blaming Lenin for recognizing Ukraine, because at best his recognition of Ukraine was what is often called a head fake rather than an act of sincerity. The reality is that Ukraine was under the control of the USSR.

So, in hundreds of years of that landmass being occupied by one or more tribes, nations or empires. It's total existence as a sovereign nation was for a total of 5 years of the majority of the landmass regarding Lenin's recognition, and then an additional 20 years, of the entire landmass (Crimea no more), through out the long history preceding & in-between those brief periods.

They could have remained under control of that landmass had it no been from interference by us & NATO.

First with the color-revolution started after Viktor Yanukovych had signed the Russian trade agreement and rejecting the EU trade agreement, both of which he had intended to sign until the EU found out that was his intention and threatened to retract their trade agreement if signed the Russian trade agreement.

He decided right there he was not going to sign the EU agreement, because he said that it was like the bride arriving at the church only to be presented a nuptial agreement to sign.

He had agreed to hold elections early to proceed with a lawful orderly transition of power. Instead they chose to run him out of Ukraine. That then provoked Putin's response concerning the Crimea.

He was so possessed to reconstitute that he waited 8 years to start that that desired goal.

In the meantime, Putin wasted the opportunity to execute a quick execution of that effort trying in vain to work out a peaceful resolution to the issues he was concerned about involving the national security of Russia, which is what a good president does to protect his nation that he leads.

Minsk I followed by Minsk II were crafted to defuse the situation. ,p> Angela Merkle then outright stated that the Minsk agreements were only signed to buy time to train & arm the Ukraine military. \

The only reason for doing so is that the desired outcome would be the proxy war. A war they wanted with the goal being top attrite Russia militarily & to send Russia into financial ruination, while doing deep damage to Ukraine for the backend expectations of financial gains for the criminals in control of our nation taking control of the vassal nation of Ukraine and the rebuilding effort.

But in reality, you too have used the propaganda. Russian control has been the longest of that landmass. You have allowed our trials & tribulations with the evil USSR, to be transferred to Putin & Russia. Now I am not saying that Russia or Putin are angels, I'm saying that this administration coupled with the Uni-party are a criminal enterprise, and as such are a far greater threat to this nation than Russia is.

Wake up man to the realities, and start to recognize the propaganda for what it actually is, and who presents the real threat to all of us.

You are unwittingly aiding & abetting the bigger threat to this nation.

25 posted on 06/28/2024 12:13:12 PM PDT by Robert DeLong
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To: Robert DeLong
Ukrainian nationalism developed in the 19th century.…

So, in hundreds of years of that landmass being occupied by one or more tribes, nations or empires. It's total existence as a sovereign nation was for a total of 5 years of the majority of the landmass regarding Lenin's recognition, and then an additional 20 years, of the entire landmass (Crimea no more), through out the long history preceding & in-between those brief periods.

You are confusing nation with statehood. Although ruled by other powers, Ukrainian nationalism can trace back all the way to Kyivan Rus. After the Mongol invasion in the 13th century an independent Ukrainian state existed in the west. It was conquered by the Poles in the 14th century but the Ukrainians rose up against the Poles in the 17th century. This would lead to the formation of the Cossack Hetmanate with the Treaty of Pereiaslav with Russia in 1654. This was a treaty for Russian protection with the Hetmanate as autonomous dependency of the Tsar ruled by its own Hetman. This lasted until it was abolished by Catherine the Great between 1764 and 1781.

Ukraine gained independence again in 1917 with the fall of the Tsar. Although it was conquered again by the Soviets in 1922, Lenin was forced to recognize the Ukrainian nation as distinct from the Russian. Thus the creation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, with Ukraine as a founding member on equal terms with Russia, and not part of it, within the union. According to the Soviet constitution, Ukraine had the right to secede from the union. This provision is what Putin has termed as "Lenin's mistake." Ukraine again gained independence in 1991.

Thus in all of its history, Ukraine was ruled as a part of Russia proper for only 136 years. In all of this time the Ukrainian people existed as a nation separate from both the Poles and the Russians. Putin and many other Russians, however, refuse to accept this and continue to think of Ukraine as rightly part of Russia. And this is the cause of this war; not NATO expansion or any of the other bogus reasons that Putin gives. He though that under a weak Biden he could easily overrun the country and reestablish Russian rule. This provision is what Putin has termed "Lenin's mistake."

26 posted on 06/29/2024 5:19:02 PM PDT by Petrosius
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