| Transcript |
| 0:00 | · | were there actually updates in physics maybe mid-century that were not disclosed to the public well i mean it quieted down because nobody ever got |
| 0:10 | · | anywhere or it quieted it down because it did get somewhere and it went black ladies and gentlemen it's finally here the much anticipated conversation with eric weinstein and |
| 0:19 | · | hal put off the world's most brilliant physics mind of our time is the son of the country's most |
| 0:26 | · | prominent and important anti-gravity researcher of the 1950s i don't know what any of this is hal is |
| 0:33 | · | an electrical engineer and laser physicist former nsa and cia hal was a senior advisor to atip the |
| 0:40 | · | official government ufo investigation program that ran from 2007 to 2012 out of bigelow aerospace he |
| 0:47 | · | also founded and ran the cia's psychic spy program called stargate out of stanford research institute |
| 0:54 | · | in the 70s does our government have a protocol to wield stigma as a tool for keeping its programs |
| 1:03 | · | secret certainly there are parts of the government who consider that to be their job many of you are |
| 1:08 | · | already familiar with my colleague eric weinstein he's a mathematician who's dared to construct a unified theory of physics called geometric unity he's also a prominent yet rebellious cultural |
| 1:18 | · | commentator who founded the intellectual dark web i still carry the sense of i cannot believe i am sitting here discussing visitations from some intelligent life that we don't understand |
| 1:31 | · | this interview is neither for the queasy nor the faint of mind there are more videos some are better how much better as good as you could probably want for many of your comments i |
| 1:40 | · | haven't cut much from this interview i left it pretty raw long form and unedited it's a deep technical dive into the physics of ufos along with the implications of their prominence |
| 1:50 | · | in the modern zeitgeist that is that we are either being subjected to the most interesting |
| 1:55 | · | effective and weird government psyop of all time or our top scientists are |
| 2:00 | · | missing something fundamental about the nature of reality and finally hal gets about as candid |
| 2:06 | · | as he's ever been about the government's psychic spy program stargate while eric who's a little |
| 2:11 | · | more skeptical of parapsychology tries not to throw up we ran 70 30 instead of 50 50. sorry |
| 2:17 | · | but if you want to do it feel free to do it i've told you how to do it so you can just go do it |
| 2:23 | · | okay you don't have a lot of room to move you either have to postulate new physics or you have |
| 2:29 | · | to say this isn't material everything here is bold my conclusion is that there is something |
| 2:35 | · | there i don't like losing to jesse it's horrible losing him on ufos i don't want to lose it to him a second time but something is wildly off so with that out of the way hit subscribe and get ready to |
| 2:47 | · | unlearn everything you thought you knew about the material world with eric weinstein and hal put off |
| 2:57 | · | different parts have different activities but you know that don't you |
| 3:16 | · | the intelligence committee has ordered the director of national intelligence and the secretary of defense to deliver a report on the mysterious sightings of unidentified aerial |
| 3:26 | · | phenomena uap more commonly known as ufos the reason i found the report fascinating was because |
| 3:36 | · | it reeked of conflict i could clearly detect a voice an authorial voice that wanted to disclose |
| 3:43 | · | more and one that said over my dead body and the over my dead body people seem to be stronger |
| 3:51 | · | but losing ground the first branch of the decision tree is is it stuff that is unintentionally |
| 3:58 | · | in the air versus stuff that is intentionally in the air the unintentional stuff was broken into |
| 4:03 | · | two categories that was clutter and atmospheric effects the stuff that is intentionally in the |
| 4:09 | · | air was broken into the next branch which was us not us not us was broken into two things |
| 4:17 | · | known others and unknown others and that other is intentionally in the air not us not anyone we |
| 4:24 | · | know not necessarily aliens could be coming out of the ocean could be time travel i mean who the |
| 4:31 | · | hell knows but anything in that other category is astonishing i think one very important thing that |
| 4:41 | · | most people in government who study this seem to sort of have a consensus on that the public |
| 4:47 | · | might not realize is the idea that there is a separation between substrate and signature when |
| 4:53 | · | it comes to ufos and there might be a difference in terms of the way somebody perceives it and some |
| 4:58 | · | underlying sort of proto architecture and so if we have been seeing these things for thousands |
| 5:04 | · | of years we've been seeing them in different forms different forms and maybe different sources |
| 5:11 | · | these days since our technology platforms are so high to generate effects they could mimic |
| 5:20 | · | and our detection platforms are so well advanced so we could see a lot more |
| 5:28 | · | then it really is a zoo of options and possibilities and so for example for the tic |
| 5:34 | · | tac videos that are so well known lou elizondo was behind releasing those videos i remember |
| 5:40 | · | seeing them in the pentagon before they were released but there are more videos some are better |
| 5:47 | · | how much better well as good as you could probably want if you showed me |
| 5:55 | · | pieces of a craft and you guaranteed me somehow that it came from outside the solar system my |
| 6:01 | · | first thought wouldn't be technology it would be physics because everything is so far away from us |
| 6:07 | · | other than our solar system that i would be wondering well how did it get here when you look |
| 6:14 | · | at the civil war in the united states it took place in the 1860s |
| 6:22 | · | within less than a hundred years we were dropping fusion devices from jet aircraft less than a |
| 6:31 | · | hundred years less than a single lifetime it means that we almost had a nuclear civil war |
| 6:40 | · | and it was a very near miss now what separated the 1860s which looked like antiquity to many of us |
| 6:48 | · | from 1952 when we have the first fusion weapon explode it was changes in our understanding of |
| 6:57 | · | the physical world that means anytime you have a profound physical insight post i don't know 1940s |
| 7:08 | · | you have to ask yourself what pandora's box with a new physical insight potentially open and |
| 7:20 | · | i don't know why we're not more worried about this i think because we've been failing at physics for 50 years we've gotten out of the habit of thinking physics is really |
| 7:29 | · | dangerous and you have to track every single important physicist because any change in our physical understanding of the universe can unlock holy hell |
| 7:38 | · | were there actually updates in physics maybe mid-century that were not disclosed to the public |
| 7:48 | · | another puzzle we would love to have cleared up is an understanding of the role of aerospace |
| 7:55 | · | companies as holders of potentially basic scientific knowledge not shared with the |
| 8:01 | · | academic world is it possible it seems very wrong to me may be wrong but it's um true |
| 8:08 | · | it is true you believe it's true yeah i know it's true you know that there's physics knowledge |
| 8:15 | · | held by aerospace companies that is not there certainly is materials knowledge materials well okay materials which involves topological physics or whatever |
| 8:24 | · | okay but fundamental physics as opposed to you know condensed matter or right certainly |
| 8:31 | · | aerospace corporations have knowledge in the uap area that specifically are sequestered by |
| 8:41 | · | against foia because of proprietary appreciables which the whole thing was set up to be that way |
| 8:49 | · | on purpose right but the idea that there would be fundamental physical knowledge that would be housed in an aerospace company and not shared with the physics community there is no evidence of that |
| 9:00 | · | no evidence for it i'm not that i know of and i wouldn't that doesn't mean it's not the case but |
| 9:06 | · | that would be this crazy egregious it would change our entire concept of who we are if |
| 9:11 | · | somebody kept fundamental physics secret in the years since we became capable of exploding |
| 9:19 | · | fusion devices i would grab a pitchfork and a tiki torch and i would march on the national |
| 9:25 | · | science foundation right right i don't i still can't believe that that's true |
| 9:31 | · | it would only be if it were the case that in fact we have mastered anti-gravity |
| 9:37 | · | and they're being built by aerospace corporations then new physics would have to be involved is |
| 9:44 | · | what is called the golden age of general relativity tied to these topics that is |
| 9:51 | · | there was this bizarre surge of activity in general relativity between you know i would say |
| 9:57 | · | the time of einstein in the 50s or something like that there wasn't a ton of development in gr and |
| 10:03 | · | then suddenly there was this explosion there was a well this explosion uh there there's a famous uh |
| 10:10 | · | series came out in miami herald and other newspapers in probably the 50s the author was |
| 10:17 | · | talbert and he did a series where he found out that a number of aerospace engineering |
| 10:25 | · | companies were suddenly interested in anti-gravity and that people like dewitt on up and down |
| 10:32 | · | really top level physicists were suddenly getting grants to look at the idea of antigravity for |
| 10:40 | · | example the gravity essay came along the gravity research foundation foundation right and so |
| 10:48 | · | it looked like it's going to be a big explosion but anyway then it all sort of quieted down and |
| 10:53 | · | i could take two implications of that and that is it quieted down because nobody ever got anywhere |
| 11:01 | · | or quieted it down because it did get somewhere and it went black my understanding is that there were really twin loci of activity one of which surrounds a |
| 11:13 | · | gravity research foundation in new boston new hampshire and i guess that was the work of babson |
| 11:20 | · | and the story is sort of not really very plausible that his sister had drowned in a pond or something |
| 11:28 | · | to that effect and so he had gravity as his sworn enemy um you know this story no i had not heard |
| 11:35 | · | this oh yeah so babson contacted lewis whitten who was coming out of johns hopkins and then oddly a |
| 11:45 | · | similarly named individual named bainson with some sort of tobacco or air conditioning fortune |
| 11:51 | · | reaches out to bryce dewitt and asks whether he will found an institute at the university |
| 11:59 | · | of north carolina chapel hill right for the study of physical fields and particularly focusing on |
| 12:04 | · | gravity particularly focused on gravity somehow dewitt has the courage to answer this essay |
| 12:12 | · | contest in the other silo and destigmatizes it so there was money to be had but nobody wanted |
| 12:17 | · | to touch it because of fear of ridicule from their colleagues and then there's a famous |
| 12:23 | · | gravity conference at the university of north carolina chapel hill that sort of kicks a lot of this off it's a tremendous flurry of activity at a time when anti-gravity |
| 12:32 | · | was trying to break into respectability at a minimum we know that the glenn martin company |
| 12:39 | · | where martin was an early pioneer i think from the time of the wright brothers |
| 12:45 | · | that the glenn martin company becomes martin marietta later becomes lockheed martin so that word martin is coming all the way through was employing i believe lewis whitton edward whitton's |
| 12:58 | · | father to do anti-gravity research somehow tied up with wright-patterson air force base |
| 13:04 | · | in ohio and the johns hopkins university in baltimore maryland so there's something |
| 13:10 | · | about aerospace in the 1950s and sort of post manhattan project era that's pretty potent |
| 13:18 | · | and we're confused by this why was solomon left schetz the great topologist recruited to be |
| 13:26 | · | involved with louis whitten and to have an entire non-linear group working on mathematics that then |
| 13:33 | · | gets moved to brown university when i believe that these programs are sunsetted so they get spun off |
| 13:39 | · | back into the academic ecosystem i don't know what any of this is so you have top physicists |
| 13:46 | · | working on crazy stuff and physicists don't know the story yeah right yeah it's like i knew |
| 13:53 | · | it because it was weird it stood out the lewis whitten edward whitton story has never been fully |
| 14:01 | · | made sense the world's most brilliant physics mind of our time is the son of the country's |
| 14:08 | · | most prominent and important anti-gravity researcher of the 1950s do you think that string |
| 14:15 | · | theory which edwin worked on is intentionally a bridge to nowhere i have privately said to you |
| 14:22 | · | that string theory was a very odd development because it both allowed physics to proceed as |
| 14:32 | · | if it was doing something new while breaking no new ground in the physical world in which we live |
| 14:40 | · | i don't really know if you were trying to stagnate the field string theory is pretty brilliant |
| 14:48 | · | if there was knowledge that allowed you to to traverse the cosmos in other words if you could render einstein's theory effective the way einstein rendered newton's theory non-fundamental |
| 15:02 | · | but an effective theory derived from einstein's theory in a limit |
| 15:07 | · | to not share that knowledge with the physics community would be seen as gross |
| 15:14 | · | academic and intellectual malpractice yeah if somebody had that level of knowledge i mean |
| 15:19 | · | the best that uh you know we could do in the in the a-tip program was say okay let's accept |
| 15:27 | · | einstein's gr as being the theory okay even though there are all kinds of arguments |
| 15:33 | · | right subscribe by gr you mean general relativity general relativity and for this subject area for |
| 15:39 | · | the uap subject area as far as as we've gone is to say okay suppose i treat general relativity |
| 15:47 | · | einstein's equations for general relativity the way i would treat maxwell's equations for electromagnetism if we could manipulate variables and einstein's equations the way we manipulate |
| 15:59 | · | variables in maxwell's equations you would see certain kinds of things which tend to match claimed observations of uap phenomena somewhere there's a missing key |
| 16:11 | · | for how you can do manipulation of those variables in einstein's equations without |
| 16:17 | · | having to have a black hole in your pocket are you talking about the idea that you want to promote |
| 16:25 | · | constance to field content to be actual physical fields that can |
| 16:31 | · | vibrate and live and move yes i would say so but then you have the quantum mechanical consequences |
| 16:36 | · | when you promote something to field content you break it you bought it you've got a lot of uh |
| 16:42 | · | you've got fluctuations and uncertainty principles and it contributes to all sorts of uh processes |
| 16:48 | · | and sometimes you get you know explosions of terms of series things stop converging and things can get quite bad is that something that you feel you've handled well at a certain level |
| 17:04 | · | how can we describe in layman's terms the idea of promoting a constant like the gravitational |
| 17:10 | · | constant into a field variable so a very kind of helpful actual analogy used for me who's a |
| 17:16 | · | i'm a total idiot when it comes to this stuff is a circle and pi being a constant you know the |
| 17:23 | · | area of a circle is pi r squared uh and so if the circle had bumps in it or if it was topologically |
| 17:29 | · | different in some way pi wouldn't be pi pi would sort of be more variable in such circumstances |
| 17:36 | · | something that you thought was a constant turns out to be variable when considered in a |
| 17:43 | · | larger space of possibilities likewise if i ask what is the temperature in this |
| 17:48 | · | room i'm feeling a little bit chilly and you might say oh i think the temperature is 64. |
| 17:56 | · | but then we might find out that in fact the room varies between 63 degrees and the 69 degrees in a |
| 18:02 | · | different corner of the room so something that you thought was a number like we just we had inflation |
| 18:10 | · | estimates of 6.8 and then 7.0 percent and i was very angry about that because my claim was |
| 18:17 | · | that you should report inflation on various maps the way you show the temperatures in the country |
| 18:26 | · | on a temperature map with gradients and isotherms and what have you if you do that to numbers like |
| 18:32 | · | for example the gravitational constant that constant could be the value of a function |
| 18:40 | · | and if it was the value of a function and then that function became quantum mechanical you would have to treat it quantum mechanically it's not cheap to replace a number by a function |
| 18:49 | · | or a field we have an entire planet pulling us towards these couches and yet when the interview |
| 18:57 | · | is done we will get up from these couches defeating an entire planet the weakness of gravity |
| 19:04 | · | is one of the great mysteries of our lives it's inconceivably weak |
| 19:12 | · | true enough yeah and if we accept gravit einstein's general relativity as |
| 19:19 | · | again i'm not quite sure how much of it you you take issue with it would seem that we are |
| 19:25 | · | either prisoners here or that we have to lean so heavily on time dilation or we would have to |
| 19:34 | · | amass levels of energy i mean your point is yeah we can't we can't do it from what we know |
| 19:41 | · | for sure okay so then the idea is we'd have to have something wrong |
| 19:47 | · | in gr yeah something is at least missing okay maybe jar is okay |
| 19:54 | · | as it goes but we're missing something that would have the effect of |
| 20:01 | · | manipulating the variables in there that we can't do with any reasonable engineering |
| 20:06 | · | approach well so far as i know there's only one analog that even smells vaguely like |
| 20:12 | · | this in electromagnetism aaronoff and bohm argued that if you pass an electron beam |
| 20:19 | · | around a solenoid and pass the current through it if it was perfectly insulated you would have |
| 20:24 | · | no e and b fields out that is electric electric and magnetic fields outside of the solenoid but |
| 20:30 | · | yet you'd get a phase shift in the electron beam is it circled this is what's known as a holonomia |
| 20:35 | · | effect you guys talked about this incredible experiment called the bohm iron off effect can you show me the actual experiment imagine you have some sort of an electron gun and you have a beam |
| 20:47 | · | of electrons and they hit a first mirror so that they bounce off of that mirror |
| 20:54 | · | you have a next mirror in the form of a diamond and i'm looking down on my table top experiment |
| 21:01 | · | and i've got some sort of a detector over here if i have a wire here that's heavily heavily |
| 21:08 | · | insulated i can imagine running a current through this wire the solenoid in the center |
| 21:13 | · | and the e and b fields would be dead equal to zero because of the insulator |
| 21:19 | · | however when i pass current through this wire mysteriously the detector |
| 21:24 | · | picks up different patterns of self-interference of the phase of the electron function |
| 21:32 | · | in other words this setup can detect whether there's current passing through the wire despite |
| 21:40 | · | near perfect insulation that was what was so frightening in the late 50s is that we were discovering that it wasn't the electromagnetic fields at all |
| 21:49 | · | that were really the important actor in the electromagnetic story we thought we understood electromagnetism from the time of maxwell but clearly the electromagnetic four potential |
| 22:01 | · | was really the main actor do we understand the nature of the electromagnetic for potential or |
| 22:06 | · | is it just this sort of geometrically i think we have a very good handle okay and so you mentioned |
| 22:11 | · | the higgs field looking like something like analogous to like a wine bottle what would the electromagnetic four potential geometrically look like well it looks like a version of the escher |
| 22:24 | · | staircase or the penrose stairs in effect those stairs would be something like we would call them |
| 22:32 | · | horizontal subspaces the weird feature of going around a circuit and always going up the stairs |
| 22:41 | · | and yet never climbing in height that would be what we would call a holonomia effect due |
| 22:48 | · | to curvature paradox and you can go way beyond that so there are all kinds of |
| 22:56 | · | toroidal geometries for example where you have no em fields whatsoever but you have strong |
| 23:04 | · | vector scalar fields and since you have no lorentz force in the absence of e and b |
| 23:12 | · | then how can you detect them well you detect them by the by any kind of quantum detector they |
| 23:19 | · | can detect phase shifts can detect the vector scalar potential even in the absence of fields |
| 23:26 | · | so there's a whole engineering approach concerning which i have two patents by the way |
| 23:33 | · | and have started a new company that involves only dealing with vector and scalar potentials when you |
| 23:41 | · | are trying to come up with this analogy between electromagnetism and general relativity to |
| 23:46 | · | explain some of these effects are you dealing only with the leviticuvida connection of the metric as einstein did or are you considering i'm basically dealing with the metric coefficients |
| 23:58 | · | by postulating a dielectric vacuum whose dielectric constant values for say epsilon |
| 24:06 | · | mu the permeability and permittivity of the vacuum can be manipulated and once you manipulate those |
| 24:14 | · | you're manipulating c which is one over square root scrutiny epsilon and so once you begin |
| 24:19 | · | to manipulate c then you can change effects associated with all of the and so you could |
| 24:27 | · | with this with this polarizable vacuum approach which i published in physics journal |
| 24:35 | · | you can get all of the quote tests of general relativity and so on so |
| 24:41 | · | so the fact that you might be able to pursue that further by taking into account the fact that underlying electromagnetism is is vacuum fluctuations |
| 24:52 | · | which have the effect of controlling the value for epsilon and mu so then |
| 24:59 | · | you say okay well if i want to go over to general relativity maybe i can control the underlying values for the metric coefficients so there are various mathematical approaches to |
| 25:11 | · | kind of pushing einstein's equations to be not quite einsteinian so we're not talking about this |
| 25:20 | · | this is what has been confusing to me there's a question of accepting the einsteinian prison |
| 25:25 | · | or trying to do to einstein what einstein did to newton and then say there's a more fundamental |
| 25:32 | · | theory and what you're really saying is that you're trying to come up with a more fundamental theory than general relativity in which many of the things that are hard coded are in fact vacuum |
| 25:43 | · | expectation values that are only discernible within the theory something like that yeah |
| 26:02 | · | there are consequences after impact you have a theory that is a greater it's more expansive than |
| 26:10 | · | einstein einstein would be you can locate einstein with you can locate einstein within it and so |
| 26:16 | · | does any of the stuff in geometric unity your theory dovetail with what you're seeing in terms |
| 26:22 | · | of observables with ufos and uaps there are two strong versions of geometric unity in one case |
| 26:31 | · | you put an extra six dimensions as time dimensions into into the mix and so one plus six is seven |
| 26:39 | · | and then you've got four extra spatial dimensions four plus the three spatial dimensions we already know is seven so you'd have what we would call a split signature metric seven and |
| 26:48 | · | seven seven times seven space the other way of of effectively gluing these extra dimensions is |
| 26:55 | · | in is to flip them so you'd have four extra time dimensions that would be five time dimensions in |
| 27:02 | · | total versus nine spatial with three that we know plus six new ones in either case though |
| 27:09 | · | you're talking about multiple temporal dimensions and even physicists rarely talk about multiple |
| 27:15 | · | temporal dimensions because it completely breaks our paradigm of what we might call |
| 27:21 | · | hamiltonian dynamics the idea that you you can take any situation in space and then propagate |
| 27:28 | · | it through time to get the future when you have more than one time dimension you have |
| 27:34 | · | more than one future you have no arrow of time you have a whirlpool of time for the first additional |
| 27:41 | · | time dimension then you have a right hand rule of time and so this arrow of time becomes something |
| 27:48 | · | you would call a time orientation and then the weird horrible thing about that if i may use the |
| 27:53 | · | board yeah go for it when you have more than one temporal dimension you now have a new possibility |
| 27:59 | · | that you've never considered which is you could go back into this extra extra time dimension |
| 28:08 | · | and find yourself at an earlier event without ever having to retrace time steps you wouldn't |
| 28:14 | · | have to run time backwards we don't really know how to think about these things very well they lead to something which is called ultra hyperbolic equations and we don't have a ton |
| 28:24 | · | of focus or skill around these sorts of problems one of my biggest concerns is that if geometric |
| 28:31 | · | unity turns out to be true we don't know what it means to be able to hack extra temporal dimensions |
| 28:42 | · | that's a big concern i mean it would probably explain some of this uh at least observably |
| 28:50 | · | faster than speeding travel see that's the thing there is no faster than light travel |
| 28:56 | · | and we have to train people away from saying you think we have faster than light travel there may |
| 29:01 | · | be something that would appear to be faster which temporal dimension hacking which sort of makes it |
| 29:07 | · | because a lot of these uaps seem to sort of mater materialize and dematerialize it will |
| 29:12 | · | look there's certainly scope for pattern matching if you have things like dark chemistry |
| 29:19 | · | dark light if you have a multiple spatial and temporal dimensions beyond what we know |
| 29:29 | · | the concern though is we don't know whether they're accessible the interest and the fear |
| 29:35 | · | has to do with the idea that maybe somebody else knows the answer to this and they aren't human |
| 29:44 | · | so that one's called the time warp i can't believe you never saw rocky wore a picture no i know it's a cult classic have you seen it speaking of cults how weren't you in scientology |
| 29:56 | · | oh year years years back i checked into it because at that time we were doing you know |
| 30:01 | · | setting up a remote viewing program we were checking into everything silver mind control scientology whatever whatever i thought some of the techniques were definitely of value but |
| 30:12 | · | i disconnected from them in their mid 70s or whatever i think what we need to do is |
| 30:17 | · | we need to talk about pseudoscience and stigma and its weaponization and its use so the first |
| 30:23 | · | thing i want to ask you about is does our government have a protocol to wield stigma |
| 30:32 | · | as a tool for keeping its programs secret is the is the government so certainly there are parts of |
| 30:39 | · | the government who consider that to be their job is there language for the manipulation of stigma |
| 30:47 | · | to discourage people from under undertaking scientific investigations that might lead them |
| 30:53 | · | into an area of security concern there is a language in there there are certain operations that sort of have that effect but there are people who are trying to get around |
| 31:05 | · | you you personally have been the target of a great deal of directed stigma it would seem to me do you |
| 31:11 | · | have a sense that you've been that your career has been directed by manufactured signals certainly |
| 31:18 | · | there was manufactured stigma and control we've had people actually shut down a piece of a program |
| 31:26 | · | on the basis that american taxpayer dollars should not be spent on pursuing demonic technology |
| 31:32 | · | you know denshian yeah okay i was friendly with dan sheehan and admired his work taking on all |
| 31:40 | · | these crazy cases against the government not knowing he had any interest in ufo uap |
| 31:46 | · | there was an attempt to discredit him through stigma because of his interest in the iran contra |
| 31:53 | · | matter right with the christic institute and so i think he was fed wrong information probably so that he'd swing at a bad pitch and that's why i was very interested at the weaponization of stigma |
| 32:05 | · | and whether or not you were party to any knowledge of how that is carried |
| 32:10 | · | out so as to keep these programs no i've never other than being the effect of them |
| 32:21 | · | you do want to keep things like the loch ness monster and spoon bending away from |
| 32:26 | · | the ufo conversation if you can and there's this tremendous force in this world to say |
| 32:32 | · | well if we're opening our minds to ufos my aunt lived in this house that was haunted for 27 years |
| 32:40 | · | like i don't want to hear this i don't want to listen to the fact that your aunt's house is |
| 32:45 | · | wanted now the thing that goes against what i'm saying is something like cattle mutilation so |
| 32:52 | · | either somebody is an amazing sadistic animal hoaxer or you have to open the uap story to |
| 33:03 | · | them communicating something by their decision to study cattle or leave cattle as presents for us or |
| 33:10 | · | who knows what well that brings up this really weird place called skinwalker ranch in in utah |
| 33:16 | · | i think it's the near the utah basin and you enter you went to basin and so there's a myth |
| 33:22 | · | that involves the ute tribe fighting the navajos and i believe the navajo is sick |
| 33:28 | · | these skin walkers these sorts of youths were collaborating with the united states government the navajo weren't so happy and so they cursed this particular spot of land with skin waters |
| 33:38 | · | and the family that used to live on the land would see tons of cattle mutilations they'd experience |
| 33:45 | · | all sorts of paranormal things bigelow buys it bigelow is obviously very interested in the |
| 33:50 | · | you know uap phenomena and now it seems like it's this place where they do all sorts of experiments |
| 33:56 | · | they have anomalous electromagnetic effects on the grounds so what do you what do you make of this |
| 34:02 | · | something is wildly off this stuff is interesting enough that it should be attracting scientists |
| 34:10 | · | and the scientists who are attracted to this should be debunking the living crap out of this |
| 34:17 | · | if it's some dime store bs but the absence of scientists is itself puzzling yeah partially |
| 34:25 | · | due to stigma partially due to the fact that nobody wants to get sucked into some low rent |
| 34:30 | · | uh horror movie where two kids see a creature in the black lagoon and they try to tell the |
| 34:35 | · | townspeople and no one believes that yeah the question is is the stigma manufactured or is |
| 34:40 | · | the stigma sigma because all this stuff is [ __ ] we're pretty clear that's a lot of stigma is |
| 34:46 | · | manufactured so the government talks about an internal documents image cheapening and what's |
| 34:53 | · | the context in which image cheapening is has been used or famously against a woman who was a leading |
| 34:59 | · | actress in hollywood named jean seberg and the fbi is how we learned about image cheapening |
| 35:07 | · | planted a story with a woman named joyce haber in the los angeles times that the baby that she was |
| 35:14 | · | carrying was in fact not her french husbands but was in fact the baby of a black panther they drove |
| 35:21 | · | her to suicide they drove her to miscarriage first and then 10 years of suicide attempts but the key point is our government does not necessarily blink trying to turn your reputation into absolute |
| 35:33 | · | garbage if you get close to its treasured sources and methods yeah and that is not compatible |
| 35:40 | · | with saying that we have something that we don't understand menacing our military its airspace and |
| 35:46 | · | our nuclear sites very strange it's hard because it's clear that there's some element of the psyop |
| 35:52 | · | here and then it's hard to sort of separate there has to be scion there has to be because project blue book yes and the pentagon report do not seem to be particularly compatible in other words |
| 36:05 | · | it appears that either we were lying then that there's nothing to see yeah and we're telling the |
| 36:10 | · | truth now or we're telling the truth then that there's nothing to see and we're lying now that |
| 36:16 | · | ufos are here what i find really interesting about the blue book history is edward j rupelt was sort |
| 36:22 | · | of running blue book he was an air force general and he seemed pretty open-minded to the phenomena |
| 36:28 | · | being real especially after kind of empirical inquiry and then in 1952 something very bizarre |
| 36:35 | · | happened which is there were a bunch of spottings of ufo spottings around washington dc in july 1952 |
| 36:43 | · | and then there's a there's a caltech physicist named h.p robertson who forms kind of a panel |
| 36:48 | · | and the conclusion of the panel is basically the government needs to systematically downplay the |
| 36:56 | · | importance of the phenomena and if the public were to know the truth it would touch off mass hysteria |
| 37:04 | · | every single head of blue book from that point forward from 52 to 69 when it ended uh became |
| 37:10 | · | progressively more kind of anti-ufo and so the question is is this you know typical cia leaked |
| 37:18 | · | dock to lead us off the trail and is it [ __ ] or um did was manufactured stigma created between |
| 37:26 | · | 1952 and 1969 actually blue book maybe initially was kind of open too what happened in 1952 |
| 37:33 | · | the dc ufo sightings in in july yeah i was going to say the oh what else the first |
| 37:41 | · | h-bomb h-bomb teller yeah a tele-rule on design yeah so the concern that i have is that in 1952 |
| 37:51 | · | we sent off a signal just wait just the way when north korea detonates a nuclear device |
| 37:56 | · | it sends seismic waves through the earth it can't stop sending information outside of the country |
| 38:05 | · | i think in 1952 we sent a signal to the cosmos which is that we're very very close |
| 38:11 | · | to being in possession of root level knowledge to take a software metaphor we are about to become |
| 38:17 | · | root which is terrifying if you're a system administrator that you've got a hacker that's about to get full control of the system it's like your edge.org question which was uh what |
| 38:26 | · | happens when we discover our own source code does something unprecedented happen there's something unprecedented happen when man first aliens well people didn't understand what the question was |
| 38:35 | · | though it was the final edge question and instead of giving an answer he asked us to give a question |
| 38:43 | · | the concern that i have is that in 1952 what if there was someone there to hear |
| 38:49 | · | what we said in the pacific if there was something or someone there to hear us |
| 38:54 | · | they probably heard us as saying we're on the verge of being able to come visit |
| 39:02 | · | that's terrifying the stargate program which you ran which is a government sort of psychic spy |
| 39:09 | · | program ran from 1972 to 1995 and it ended in 1995 under ed may and you know a lot of people |
| 39:19 | · | after that said that it wasn't all that effective see that's part of the uh the stigmatization well |
| 39:25 | · | i was just reading skin walkers at the pentagon you know where it talks about atip and and i guess |
| 39:32 | · | yeah awesome these two programs uh and it looks like remote viewing is sort of again |
| 39:38 | · | revived i guess i don't think it ever really died so so the question is yeah is that is that um |
| 39:44 | · | creating a stigma because you're bundling in parapsychology um which might be pseudoscience |
| 39:50 | · | with the ufo stuff or or is it is there some connection between those two things because there seems like a lot of overlap in terms of the people interested in the parapsychology stuff |
| 39:59 | · | and the people interested in the ufo stuff as jacquefully and eric davis put out a very nice |
| 40:05 | · | paper of six levels of uap phenomena which range all the way from nuts and bolts at the bottom |
| 40:12 | · | to spiritual or metaphysical aspects at the top and everything kind of in between uh |
| 40:20 | · | can you can you break that down for us so what are the six levels and how how are the nuts and |
| 40:25 | · | bolts at all tethered to spiritual phenomena well actually the nutsables things but then some of |
| 40:31 | · | the consequences of the nuts and bolts things are changes in what we call ordinary reality |
| 40:38 | · | which people who are the effect of might claim that that's some kind of |
| 40:45 | · | paranormal thing because that's the only word they can come up with to describe it so there are paranormal things and then it's sort of a gradation from there in the things that are |
| 40:57 | · | purely non-physical but supposedly quote possibly psychokinesis i have to admit i have such a strong |
| 41:08 | · | visceral negative reaction and it's very interesting because as jesse will tell you |
| 41:14 | · | jesse was interested in this ufo uap stuff and i couldn't be in the room with it i just i hated |
| 41:20 | · | the topic it always felt like garbage to me and i found out that i was apparently wrong about that |
| 41:26 | · | the federal government is certainly tracking this it doesn't make any sense to me still that we have all these sensors and we don't have great video all over the place i don't know how |
| 41:36 | · | these uaps you know could possibly evade all of the cameras that we have outside of the government |
| 41:44 | · | and we have no conclusive proof but assume okay i was wrong about that at some level because we are |
| 41:50 | · | now discussing this in the open so i'm willing to start to revise everything that is protected by my |
| 41:58 | · | desire to throw up right there's this shows the the stigma programs it was on me right |
| 42:06 | · | i'm being honest and open i still carry the sense of i cannot believe i'm sitting here discussing |
| 42:11 | · | visitations from some intelligent life that we don't understand potentially |
| 42:17 | · | uh but okay so you know a scientist should be able to consider these things and i'm not going |
| 42:23 | · | to be the prisoner of the stigma but i am going to ask you guys av lobe at harvard setting up his |
| 42:28 | · | thing to pursue it but but this is a really important question if if you could set up a ton |
| 42:33 | · | of sensors how would we know what we're seeing at high sample size if right now we don't know what |
| 42:39 | · | we're seeing at low sample size and i think one question i'd have for you where i'd challenge you |
| 42:45 | · | is is is there some physics that we will figure out in the future around certain ability around |
| 42:53 | · | certain people's ability to see these things and that sounds really pseudoscientine crazy |
| 43:00 | · | but most of the people involved in the program seem to think that there's something around that and as far as as far as uh you know why aren't we getting really clear pictures |
| 43:11 | · | i mean i'm not i wouldn't say that that's necessarily the case that we're not getting you may be getting really clear but you're an average guy with an iphone let's say the craft is |
| 43:21 | · | there but it's manipulating the space-time metric so you're just going to get fuzzy outlines because |
| 43:30 | · | light is being bent in various ways around the craft and so on so you're going to get |
| 43:35 | · | a lousy picture it doesn't mean because it isn't really there i would imagine i would be drowning |
| 43:42 | · | in high quality video and it's it's a great puzzle to me that i'm sitting here discussing |
| 43:47 | · | this i can't even solve this puzzle and then the related puzzle having to do with remote viewing or anything like that is if i take a materialist perspective that the world is |
| 43:58 | · | created of material whose laws can be understood and you put me in and you or say |
| 44:04 | · | in two lead-lined rooms and we try to make sure that there's no way that any of the known forces |
| 44:11 | · | or matter fields can communicate you know my mind goes to you know are we claiming that neutrinos |
| 44:18 | · | are carrying the information are we claiming that there's a new force are we claiming that um |
| 44:25 | · | the world isn't material or the entanglement is more see this is spread out and and well |
| 44:33 | · | entanglement would be one of those things like beaumaranov and casimir which has the appearance |
| 44:39 | · | of being spooky right in other words if you had a culture in which magicians possessed scientific |
| 44:47 | · | knowledge they would have an edge over everyone else because they could explain they could predict the bone marrow and off effect see i can i can manipulate this electron beam without even |
| 44:57 | · | having any possibility of touching it right so this gets to the issue of advanced science being |
| 45:04 | · | indistinguishable from magic and then the idea that this is in some sense held by a particular |
| 45:10 | · | silos over other silos i mean as a scientist i either want to laugh or my blood boils well i mean |
| 45:21 | · | that's kind of a justifiable position for example early on in the cia remote viewing |
| 45:30 | · | program that i set up at sri i was asked to check out claims of a psychic english swan ingo |
| 45:40 | · | had done experiments at city college in new york under professor gertrude schmeider she had set up thermistors and from across the room he could make the temperatures go up and down and so |
| 45:51 | · | i took this claimed psychic invite him out to sri to see what he could do |
| 46:02 | · | we had the cork detector and so it was basically a quantum chip inside a new metal magnetic |
| 46:08 | · | shielding inside of steel dewar for electrical shielding inside of superconducting shielding the |
| 46:15 | · | requirement being that nothing could affect this thing from the outside so we want to see if you can affect it he affected it unequivocally 100 percent you had this slow oscillation |
| 46:26 | · | what he did was he stopped the oscillation now what turned out to be even more quote magical was |
| 46:34 | · | when we asked him you know how do you know what to do and he said well all i did was look inside and |
| 46:40 | · | then he drew out how things were related inside that never been published and it turned out that |
| 46:46 | · | they were accurate and so it was when i wrote all that up and circulated around that's when the |
| 46:51 | · | cia came knocking at my doorstep and they said oh we've been looking for you and i said you know why |
| 46:58 | · | would i do he said well the russians have been spending millions of dollars at their best institutes with their best people for years no scientists in america even believes there's such |
| 47:07 | · | a thing as psychokinesis or esp or whatever and you happen to do this experiment and so you know |
| 47:14 | · | we graduated from there to having remote viewing of super secret facilities and project titles |
| 47:21 | · | hidden in safes that's how the whole program got started it ended up being a 20-year 20 million |
| 47:28 | · | dollar program i don't know what to make of all of this i don't think any of this to me sounds real |
| 47:39 | · | now that said you could imagine a one-time backwards upgrade saying we happen to know about |
| 47:47 | · | aliens for a long period we've kept it secret we figured out the physics the physics has different |
| 47:53 | · | fields we're actually able to use this we call it psychic phenomena and so we don't have to give our secrets away you could imagine a complete reworking of reality |
| 48:02 | · | without that real working of reality i would say this is bs what would what would be your best guess assuming you think because you have levered a lot of your |
| 48:12 | · | life into parapsychology and you've levered a lot of your life into physics how would you reconcile |
| 48:17 | · | physics with parapsychology which i realize is a you know a 64 million dollar question but what would be your best guess do you have any theory well we we it can definitely rule out |
| 48:27 | · | that it's em brain waves because we put some of our remote viewers on submarines and took |
| 48:32 | · | them to the bottom of the ocean and we got some of our best results in fact the remote viewers in the submarine said boy it's really quiet here you know so yeah i mean if i think |
| 48:41 | · | about it in terms of telescopy right for every long-range field we now have a telescope so we |
| 48:48 | · | have optical and radio telescopes for photons we have neutrino telescopes which is actually |
| 48:56 | · | matter rather than force we know that neutrinos can zip through a planet and not even notice it was there and then we have gravitational telescopes in the form of ligo |
| 49:05 | · | and the weak force is going to be super short range super wheat because it's effectively massive |
| 49:12 | · | and we have vector scalar forces and em uh sorry when i think about e m i'm thinking you're |
| 49:19 | · | including vector and scatter potential hell yes nobody nobody okay everybody's moved on to vector |
| 49:26 | · | i don't even want to call it vector and scale just potential they're different connections on fiber bundles and then you have this issue of gravitation with ligo right so we can we can pick |
| 49:36 | · | up super long-range stuff from colliding black holes by now measuring gravity waves gluons aren't |
| 49:43 | · | going to do much for you quarks aren't going to do much for you these are the fields that really |
| 49:48 | · | give us information from distant galaxies and then there's the question of are you talking about a material world that we don't yet know or material effects that is part of the material where we do |
| 49:59 | · | where the somehow we have it for example i mean you have all these but you know the usual |
| 50:06 | · | issues about it not being useful to communicate information you have this bizarre non-locality |
| 50:12 | · | of entanglement but you can't use it for ftl for faster than light communication right right so if |
| 50:20 | · | two two events are space-like separated uh you're not so far as we know there's no means of tricking |
| 50:29 | · | uh an intention of controlling it right yeah so this is what it happens |
| 50:36 | · | well i'm i'm struggling with this to be to be honest to say just to put it mildly and i don't |
| 50:42 | · | like losing to jesse it's horrible losing him on ufos i don't want to lose it to him a second time |
| 50:48 | · | but i guess what the question is really you don't have a lot of room to move you either have to |
| 50:54 | · | postulate new physics you have to say that there are new effects like iron off bone that we didn't |
| 51:00 | · | understand during the physics that we already know but we haven't unpacked them yet or you have to say this isn't material that there's there they're angels and demons and spirits that uh |
| 51:10 | · | that don't conform to our understanding everything here is bold there's nothing that simply yeah we |
| 51:18 | · | we saw this effect it was robust so for me i've looked into the stargate stuff and i've talked to |
| 51:24 | · | you a decent amount my conclusion is that there is something there and yet it feels like there are a |
| 51:30 | · | lot of near misses as well and it seems very hard to instrumentalize and scale up there was plenty of times when we produced really good data and to be fair there were plenty of times when it failed |
| 51:40 | · | if you don't understand the causal mechanism then you're going to have repeatability issues and so is there like a part of the brain like so like the penrose thing which is probably wrong |
| 51:49 | · | but you know this idea that he wrote in the emperor's new mind that the microtubules um |
| 51:54 | · | i guess that was the follow-up of the emperor's new mind with hameroff the microtubule is our quantum sensor that collapses the wave function into an eigenstate yeah i have some sympathy for |
| 52:04 | · | going along that direction so you think there's some sort of quantum sensor in the in the brain and do you have a top candidate for the specific structure well i can't rule it out i mean they |
| 52:13 | · | certainly started from a very fundamental thing is and that is if you can get rid of consciousness by |
| 52:18 | · | using an anesthetic then however you're doing it must have something to do with consciousness |
| 52:24 | · | if this effect exists why is it classified and why is the government where is it in the stock |
| 52:31 | · | market well there are remote viewers who use it on the stock market so like the classic the good |
| 52:36 | · | example is that you guys tried to start a hedge fund you know just trading silver futures and |
| 52:42 | · | you made something like 260 k and i think scaling it beyond that seemed to be a big big challenge |
| 52:47 | · | it was only a challenge because i didn't have the time to do it i mean our particular thing i gotta |
| 52:56 | · | i mean i want to be polite but i also want to be aggressive my experience with money |
| 53:02 | · | tells me that you can win over any skeptic very quickly if you can just shove millions |
| 53:08 | · | of dollars into their pocket by arbitraging their skepticism okay let me let me tell you |
| 53:14 | · | how to do it and you just go do it it's really easy actually i know some people with capital |
| 53:20 | · | okay just have somebody pick a couple of objects have them label them mark it up mark it down |
| 53:29 | · | and they're going to show you the object the following day depends on what the market does and then you do your best to generate a description then based on that description they |
| 53:38 | · | can go back and the next day on the average you get get your money we ran 70 30 instead of 50 50. |
| 53:47 | · | and so it's two steps forward one step backward two steps four what's that that's how we downed in class that's how we got this 260 dollars which is why did you stop |
| 53:58 | · | well the reason i stopped was i was already working uh frankly 24 hours a day on on training |
| 54:03 | · | the army intelligence officers and so i was exhausted after 30 days of doing this sorry |
| 54:10 | · | but if you want to do it feel free to do it i've told you how to do it so you can just go do it |
| 54:16 | · | okay now i'm having a very surreal experience for a large portion of the conversation |
| 54:24 | · | you seem absolutely cogent coherent well-informed well-spoken and then |
| 54:30 | · | there's this part that just doesn't make any effing sense and this is the part that doesn't make any effing sense rolling up in a bugatti to your gulf stream to fly to your island |
| 54:40 | · | is a very powerful argument that you know what you're talking about bitcoin community has been |
| 54:45 | · | insulted by the economists they've been laughed at by financiers and they have a phrase which i |
| 54:53 | · | really detest but i think you need to hear it and it's called number go up and number go up means |
| 54:59 | · | that when you're talking to an esteemed professor of economics or finance and they're telling you |
| 55:05 | · | that you're an idiot and you say well why don't you visit me at the yellowstone club i'll i'll send the jet around for you number go up is an incredibly powerful argument because |
| 55:15 | · | of human greed and avarice okay i think we made this point what do you think about you |
| 55:21 | · | know when we hear that they're unidentified aerial phenomena that's one thing but then when somebody |
| 55:27 | · | like bob lazar comes out and says that he worked at a place called s4 which is a part of area 51 |
| 55:33 | · | on alien reproduction vehicles literally reverse engineering crashed ufos what are we supposed to |
| 55:40 | · | make of things like that well i mean i'm skeptical to the degree behind the scenes we can check on |
| 55:48 | · | his clearances and so on i have reason to be skeptical so i can't absolutely rule things out |
| 55:54 | · | because everything can be manipulated sure you've looked at the magnesium bismuth piece from roswell |
| 56:01 | · | which was i guess a grandfather who was a colonel in the roswell cleanup collection this was sort of |
| 56:08 | · | left in the safe and the grandson found it you do material analysis on this bismuth magnesium piece |
| 56:13 | · | the magnesium ratios were way off i mean not even close to being natural it can micro size wave guys |
| 56:23 | · | channels you know to me only data counts have no idea whether the story of somebody finding in his |
| 56:30 | · | grandfather's diary and so on is true or not so the only data i have is this piece of material |
| 56:37 | · | and does it have any unusual properties that that are interesting well i can check that out and i |
| 56:42 | · | found out that it did have this miniaturization of waveguide channels well below wavelength which is |
| 56:50 | · | quite an accomplishment but once you realize how many materials work you can do that so so that was interesting |
| 57:06 | · | i definitely believe that many people have been through the experience of contact |
| 57:14 | · | whether or not that's completely in their head or a government induced hypnotic state or who knows |
| 57:20 | · | what i no longer believe this is just a bunch of people looking for attention well it's good |
| 57:26 | · | that's what i'm saying that that makes it the most interesting thing in the world because it's either the best if you're the force ranked psyops it's up there in terms of you know the the intersection |
| 57:36 | · | between interesting and effective it's good how we really appreciate you being here eric thank |
| 57:42 | · | you for co-hosting you were a great uh co-host you asked a lot of questions that i could not jesse |
| 57:48 | · | i really appreciate what you're doing trying to get this issue out in front of the public and get it taken seriously and putting it on it you know it's best foot forward awesome thank you |
| 57:58 | · | perfect conversation though it's always very exciting to you know delve into these things |
| 58:03 | · | so yeah i think so too and i think there are a lot of loose threads but uh to be content |
| 58:09 | · | with a lot of loose threads yeah we'll chase them all okay sounds good thanks |
