Heat pumps: The 'geeks' obsessing over their new heating systems

BBC ^ | 23 Jan 2023 | Chris Baraniuk

[DUMBGRUNT]

He's got heat meters fixed to the pipework. Room temperature monitors. And gadgets tracking how much electricity his solar panels are generating.

The jewel in the crown of this system, though, is a recently installed heat pump.

"It's like a geek's paradise, really," says Mick Wall of his 1930s semi-detached house in Sheffield.

[DUMBGRUNT]

I’ve not given up yet, still looking at obtaining the RPM of the fan.
Seeing a few readings that look like possible RPM?? 256??
Reading the manual, why not? I believe that I can run FAN ONLY at fixed three speeds could work, but the defrost still overrides that function.
Looking at your link to ziehl-abegg.com, the lowest speed listed for Size 100 was around 600 RPM???
Also, a nice explanation of CROSS FLOW FANS, THANK YOU.

Looking for something repeatable, I marked each of the available divisions of the fan, maybe 1 mm wide, on the continuous rim.
Not an easy view, through the auto louver, The horizontal diverter, and a heavy wire grille(structural?) about five inches back the fan.
While standing on a ladder. Similar to a cheap circus act.
NEXT: attempting a larger paint spot on a blade. You mentioned the reflective tape, I have it in stock!, but it did not adhere well to the blower for my boiler, and that one I could get my fingers on.

I ordered a non-contact amprobe that claims 1 milliamp resolution, AC or DC non-contact clamp, and microamps using the probes.
Uses the Hall effect, cool stuff.
And hopefully with a few known RPM points...
If nothing else we have a $$$ gift toaster that takes forever, with this meter I may be able to see if it is working or if the bread is simply getting stale as I wait.

I did a couple of surveys of the return flow to calculate the mean (average)...
Then I remembered this:

“Beware of averages. The average person has one breast and one testicle.”
— Dixie Lee Ray a sharp old girl.

Thank you for your help.

[hecticskeptic]

In your post 55, you included a picture of the impeller and a link that said it was for a number WS012GMFI22HLD.

I did a search for this Pioneer unit and found these two links below... didn’t spend the time to find the exact unit but these two links seem like they are very close (one has a number off and one is a letter off).

The first one shows a unit with the number WS012GMFI20HLD .
https://www.pdhvac.com/site/downloads/brochures/WYS-20-001.pdf

The second link shows a unit with this number... WS012GMFI22HLE
https://www.pdhvac.com/site/downloads/brochures/WYS-22-001.pdf

The three speed and three cfm ratings shown on the spec sheets are not quite the same for these two units but are very close.

Have you seen these before... or do you have the correct spec sheet for your unit?

Regarding the reflective tape... the tape I have is sticky on one side. You might have to take your unit apart to press it firmly on to an impeller blade... and then use something like a couple of short pieces of duct tape to affix the edges so that it doesn’t blow off. Or drill a hole at the end of the unit (opposite to motor side) to fasten the tape to one of the end disks of the impeller so that you can shine your laser tach on it... is that possible?

[DUMBGRUNT]

And I could have saved a few dollars on eBay!!!
But mine came with the line set and trimed out cables.

--"Have you seen these before... or do you have the correct spec sheet for your unit?"

That is an interesting question.
I have a couple of sets of specs and they do not exactly match.

Because my house is long like a shotgun house and the kitchen-family rm is most of the lower level, I wanted a unit with some serious air throw.

My brother installed a couple of Pioneer Units In his Denver house, so I asked about the blower and he said it was not very forceful.

I called Park-Davis the Pioneer distributor, and the woman that answered was super knowledgeable and helpful, she quickly had the throw, CFM, amp draw... Pointed to a floor-mount unit with a more powerful blower; it works well.
Some specs for the floor unit are very close to the wall mount. Some literature touts the throw of the floor mount. I was so impressed, I had her transfer me to sales and purchased the entire system! A good thing because a few days later they were sold out.

IMO when they went to "just in time manufacturing" they also went to 'sometime later specs'.
I had a Ford Expedition and a routine plug change was like pulling my own teeth!
I needed the VIN number for the correct plugs and numerous different procedures for plugs on cars of the same model year. Two-piece spark plugs that occasionally separate upon removal, leaving half stuck in the head... The dealers charge $750.00 for the job if it goes well...
FORD HAD A BETTER IDEA!

Below is a graph of the discharge air temperature with valleys about every hour and twenty minutes for the defrost cycle. The frequency is dependent on the OA temperature, humidity, and compressor load.
That is why the blower changes whenever I attempt to survey the inlet flow.

My new milliamp non-contact meter arrived, fun toy. Checked it on a single LED, 20 milliamps about right... If you wiggle the wire it can change the value; a microamp generator.

--" end disks of the impeller so that you can shine your laser tach on it... is that possible?"
The ends of the fan wheel are covered.

For those speculating in the recycled cardboard market, I will be returning my personal cardboard supply for recycling and the price may drop.

[hecticskeptic]

The ends of the fan wheel are covered.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Right... but it is just covered with the exterior plastic of the unit, no? Can a hole be drilled on the side of the that is just big enough for a laser beam? I can understand if you don’t want to do that but hey, this is in the interest of science....

[Tijeras_Slim]

Right now I’m involved in single combat with my boiler. It doesn’t talk to my thermostats or perhaps the other way around. Fortunately, If I jumper two wires together it runs until I pull the jumper off. Heat in the evening, unplug, then get up at 3Am and start again until 10 AM.

[hecticskeptic]

By the way, I have a question for you and it involves something I’m doing that is similar to what you are doing.... I installed a new furnace this winter and it has some fancy control strategy of variable gas and an ECM supply fan that will drop in speed along with the gas heat. This way, it runs for quite a long time at a reduced heat setting as opposed to a control strategy of on and off to satisfy a thermostat.

Here’s my question... Do you have a recommendation of a tachometer that can log speed data? Here is one that I found that I think would do the job but I was wondering if there was a cheaper option.... https://www.amazon.ca/Shimpo-DT-2100-Non-Contact-Data-Logging-Tachometer/dp/B015J3L9HA

Here is what I’d like it to do...
1. Have a digital readout so that I can see visually what speed the fan is running at.... I am going to do what I suggested you do which is mount it exterior to the unit but drill a small hole for the laser beam on the side of my supply fan cabinet so that it can focus on the reflective tape.
2. I’d like it to log the rpm data... perhaps once every 10 seconds for say 24 hours.
3. Be downloadable so that I can create my own speed graph.
4. Have the ability to either run on AC or a battery that will run for 24 hours continuous while logging the data once every 10 seconds.

I have a few different tachs but none that will quite do this.. you have any suggestions?

[DUMBGRUNT]

RPM LOGGER? EASY PEASY!
Or maybe not.

My primary boiler is Weil McLain Ultra which uses the negative pressure from the draft inducer small variable speed fan to set the Btu output by driving the vacuum-operated gas valve. A common arrangement.

The Ultra is more like a heat exchanger with a computer on top and the fan speed is easily programable.
Wanting to use the Ultra as a lagging backup to the heat pump. The per Btu cost of the boiler is currently about TWICE the cost of the heat pump. Wanting the boiler to ramp up slowly and be limited to 30K Btu/h, which equals ~300 RPM on the draft inducer.
So I had to verify my settings for keeping it on the lower end of the turndown ratio.

—” I was wondering if there was a cheaper option.”

Cheap is my first name, “ME CHEAP CHARLIE NUMBER TEN” a common expression back in RVN.

UT372 non-contact Digital Laser tachometer Data hold Odometer/MAX/MIN/AVG mode;RPM range 10~99999RPM USB interface:

Uni-T Ut372 Digital Laser Photo Non-Contact Tachometer Wide Range Usb Interfa✦Kd
https://t.ly/t8tuF US $57.44 e-bay new free shipping. Also at Newegg $60, still from off shore.

The manual for UT272: https://seli.tn/Doctech/UT372.pdf
Shows the AUTO OFF can be turned off and the interval can be set up to 255 (seconds?)

One of my neighbors said it was best to cut out the middleman and order direct. Even some Tektronix meters have guts from offshore.

Also for your consideration, an inexpensive Arduino RPM logger.
NB: This is on the edge of PROPELLER HEAD territory, not for everyone. I do not claim to be a propeller head, but they allow me into their meetings.
Arduino is an open-source electronics platform based on easy-to-use hardware and software.
Like Legos with jumper wires and sometimes a bit of solider.

Can you use an inductive (tiny spinning magnet)pickup?
Simple demo with tiny magnet.
https://makersportal.com/blog/2018/10/3/arduino-tachometer-using-a-hall-effect-sensor-to-measure-rotations-from-a-fan

Hall effect sensor with a VERY SMALL neodymium magnet glued in place?
Arduino data shield writes to an SD card
Arduino rpm logger or approved equal?
< $30 for a simple tachometer that I THINK MIGHT be made to fit within close proximity to MY fan wheel??? /// The downside he uses a mini Arduino that does NOT accept the standard plug-in ‘shield’ card for data logging to an SD card, ~$10.

RPM Using IR sensor

https://projecthub.arduino.cc/BEASTIDREES62/d4a796a9-5bdf-4d5e-96ae-cd7fce0a4dc7

Just as you have helped me on my off-the-wall project, I had more than a few online helpers plus my brother the computer guru and I used an older Arduino To pick up a dozen temperature sensors from the two boilers and piping system, some years back.
Since then I found a very good price on a TYPE K Omega 8 pair extension cable $$$ to extend the readers to my den next to the computer.

Thank you

[hecticskeptic]

Many thanks for your suggestions. The UNI-T UT372 looks like it might do the trick although it’s hard to get concise information as to what they mean with their description of logging. At 1:39 at this video, it looks like it might have some useful features but hard to tell since the spec data is so sparse when it comes to talking about the logging. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWI2stg6w80 I see there is also a UT373 but it doesn’t look like it does any logging and doesn’t even have a USB port like the UT372.
One thing I noticed on Amazon is that a reviewer claimed that it can only work on a ‘rotating face’, and doesn’t work on a curved surface like the side of a shaft. That’s a bit of a deficiency for many applications. I’m not sure about that… at this link, a guy reviewed the UT373 and it didn’t look like it had any problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZhTI8sjr_U
As for the Arduino, I’ll give that to one of the kids in my office to work on for me!
Thanks again… It may take a while but I’ll let you know how I make out!

[DUMBGRUNT]

Found the software manual for the UT372.
Will not run on Linux!!! Since the grandson dropped my wife’s MS Surface nothing in this house is MS Windows, only a small chip in the corner of the screen.
I worked hard to resurrect her Windows...but it would run Linux.

They note that 50,000 records are the upper limit so it depends on the sampling rate, once a second; maybe ~6 hours.
Depends on how close you are watching.
YMMV

https://meters.uni-trend.com/download/ut372-software-instruction/?wpdmdl=7432&refresh=633e9f389e2171665048376

Maximum Number of Records Setting
After testing, below list out a normal maximum number of records that a computer can be saved for user’s reference. The computer will
slow down if it exceeds the maximum. 80486 computer: 1000 to 5000 records 80586 computer: 5000 to 50000 records Pentium 2 or up:
50000 records up To set the maximum number of records from the “Record”of the menu bar.

[Jim Noble]

They’re trying to sell this in Central NH.

It was -19F Friday night. Do they work when it’s that cold?

[DUMBGRUNT]

—”It was -19F Friday night. Do they work when it’s that cold?”

Not all of them, but the better ones will work if the house is well-insulated.

Minus 13 here in northern Illinois at Christmas, my middle-of-the-road unit was at its limit and a good thing the sun was giving me some solar gain in the morning.

I installed the heat pump for air conditioning, then some a-hole shut down the pipeline and my price for natural gas quadrupled.
I have a very nice heated floor radiant system but it cost one dollar per hour to run in cold weather (today’s rates), the heat pump does the job for less than fifty cents per hour and much better when above zero.
The heat pump provides the Btu for half the price down to zero, the cost advantage drops as it gets colder.
My system is too small to work well for heating; in my area, heating needs twice the Btu as AC.

[Red Badger]

Sounds like the heater we had when I was a kid................

[Red Badger]

Sounds like there is a broken or corroded wire between the boiler and the thermostat. Since the jumper works, the boiler is ok, and at least part of the wiring is ok.

Perhaps a relay at the boiler end has bad contacts?.................

[Tijeras_Slim]

Replaced the control unit and relay.

[Red Badger]

Squirrels in the attic chewed the wire?.................Happens a lot here..................

[Tijeras_Slim]

No there’s power at the thermostats, just why’re not talking. I’ll figure hit out.

[Red Badger]

Is there a safety thermal switch on the exhaust somewhere that is stuck open?.......................

[Tijeras_Slim]

No idea, probably going to call in a pro in a day or so.