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To: daniel1212
Your word salad in your first paragraph is irrelvant; and does not by itself establish your contention.

You're acting as though 2 Corinthians 8 automatically is relevant 1 Corinthians 3 - 4; or that Luke 12 has to do with it.

For your 2nd paragraph, as an old tutor of mine used to say, "Close, but no dog biscuit."

The difficulty in discussing any such issues, is that most people who are deeply engaged in these topics have certain verbal formulations burned into their head -- both for what they believe to be true, and therefore hold fast to; and for what they consider to be the errors of others.

What can happen all too often, is that a person says "statement XYZ" then another person hears the part "X" and mentally rushes in to fill in "XAB" instead -- which isn't what the first person said at all.

The problem is that I reject the insistence on Sola Scriptura -- "If it wasn't mentioned in the Scriptures, it is not necessary for salvation" can too easily become "if it wasn't mentioned in the Scriptures, it simply is forbidden to consider that it might happen to be of God or used by God to help someone towards Salvation".

And THAT last sentence too often springs the knee-jerk counter argument that "once you go outside the Scriptures, you open yourselves up to all KINDS of errors and even demonic influence"...which then auto-catalyzes into "everything not explicitly mentioned in Scripture (especially the teachings of my specific denomination" is *perforce* demonic.

The problem is that you are insisting that anything not listed in Scripture MUST be completely false; that's a good way to eliminate a LOT of errors, but you might be throwing some Grace away too. Mary is not salvific as Jesus is, she didn't die for our sins; but by His grace, I believe He allows His Mother to be a channel of God's Grace and Power.(*)

There's a difference between "a necessary and required component of the mechanism of salvation of mankind" and "God allows His Mother to act to spread God's grace to help certain individuals and by the way, since God is so merciful, and not-hung-up-on-Protestant-doctrine, that as many people want to approach Him that way, or grow in faith that way, He will accept them instead of casting them aside due to lack of ideololgical purity"

(*) As it turns out, there are Catholic teachings which go much further than that, based on certain Scriptures which are not emphasized by Protestants. And on the other hand, the Lutherans retained the feast of the Assumption of Mary even though it is not in Scripture.

81 posted on 11/12/2022 10:54:32 PM PST by grey_whiskers ( (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.))
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To: grey_whiskers
Your word salad in your first paragraph is irrelvant; and does not by itself establish your contention. You're acting as though 2 Corinthians 8 automatically is relevant 1 Corinthians 3 - 4; or that Luke 12 has to do with it.

You have a problem if you cannot comprehend that the principle transcends the immediate application. In any realm, there must be a standard for determining claims, and thus you should agree that mortals should not be thought of above which can be surely attested to, while especially in spiritual matters then whatever is wholly inspired of God is the sure and supreme standard, which for us, as with the NT church, that is Scripture to which they so much appealed, and were tested by.

But for you, that wholly inspired of God standard includes Catholic tradition, but which effectively means that your magisterium is the sure supreme standard, since scripture and tradition only authoritatively means what it defines it to be, and mean.

Under which premise she declared Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven to be required belief, even though even Ratzinger attested that all theological faculties in the world were consulted for their opinion and their answer was emphatically negative (critically lacking evidence from the era in which is should be manifest), and that the doctrine of Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the 5th century. However, by claiming to "remember" what history effectively neglected to record, Rome can declare what seems reasonable to her.

Thus it is not surprising that she does not censure hyper-exaltation such as lauds an almost almighty demigoddess to whom "Jesus owes His Precious Blood" to, • whose [Mary] merits we are saved by, • who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin," • and was bodily assumed into Heaven, which is a fact (unsubstantiated in Scripture or even early Tradition) because the Roman church says it is, and "was elevated to a certain affinity with the Heavenly Father," • and whose power now "is all but unlimited," • for indeed she "seems to have the same power as God," • "surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven," • so that "the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse." • and that “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus," • for indeed saints have "but one advocate," and that is Mary, who "alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation," • Moreover, "there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose," • and who has "authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven," • including "assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels," • whom the good angels "unceasingly call out to," greeting her "countless times each day with 'Hail, Mary,' while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests," • and who (obviously) cannot "be honored to excess," • and who is (obviously) the glory of Catholic people, whose "honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation.

Sources and more.

The problem is that I reject the insistence on Sola Scriptura -- "If it wasn't mentioned in the Scriptures, it is not necessary for salvation" can too easily become "if it wasn't mentioned in the Scriptures, it simply is forbidden to consider that it might happen to be of God or used by God to help someone towards Salvation". And THAT last sentence too often springs the knee-jerk counter argument that "once you go outside the Scriptures, you open yourselves up to all KINDS of errors and even demonic influence"...which then auto-catalyzes into "everything not explicitly mentioned in Scripture (especially the teachings of my specific denomination" is *perforce* demonic
. Not so if there is no conflict with Scripture, in principle or precept, and thus we can speculate whether animals will be heaven (at least some) but not make a doctrine of it, or otherwise require belief in it. Which includes requiring celebrating Christmass every December, or even Mother's day, though the principle behind such celebration itself is valid. A church can require its office holders to be part of missions month, but not make this a doctrine, nor service times, though making is reasonable and Scriptural in principle. And "there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature..." (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_i.html)

Then there are issues such as the morality of cannibalism in dire situations, under the principle of saving lives. Under SS, not all is explicit, nor formally provided for.

The problem is that you are insisting that anything not listed in Scripture MUST be completely false; that's a good way to eliminate a LOT of errors, but you might be throwing some Grace away too. Mary is not salvific as Jesus is, she didn't die for our sins; but by His grace, I believe He allows His Mother to be a channel of God's Grace and Power.(*)
As explained above, I am not insisting that anything not listed in Scripture MUST be completely false, but that making a doctrine - a required belief - for something that is not taught in Scripture, lacking Scriptural substantiation, is wrong, as is teaching what is contrary to what it teaches. Thus I do not assert that the believers in Heaven can not know what is going on in earth, but that there is simply not one command or one example of any believer praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) among the over 200 prayers by believers in Scripture, or instructions on who to address, despite prayers being a basic practice and with heavenly beings always being there to pray to, and occasions which would warrant it.

And which is despite the NT teaching much on intercession, in which the Son of God and High priest, is the "one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” ( 1 Timothy 2:5) who "is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them," (Hebrews 7:25) and as uniquely qualified to do so, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:15-16)

And concerning instruction, it was Christ who taught believers to address "Our Father who art in Heaven," and God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your [believers] hearts, crying, Abba, Father." (Galatians 4:6) Not "mama, Mother!" Thus believers prayer for others, thus "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," (Ephesians 3:14) not mother. That believers also call upon Christ is another evidence of His Divinity, as only God is shown or said to be able to hear all prayer, who "only knowest the hearts of all the children of men," (1 Kings 8:39; 2 Chronicles 6:30; Acts 1:24) which is a Divine privilege and attribute nowhere shown to be given to humans.

And before you try it, note that elders and angels offering prayers (Rv. 5:8; 8:4,5) in memorial - like as in Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15; 16:9, "an offering of memorial" cf. Num. 16:9, - is not that of them being addressed in prayer, nor does it indicate that they had heard them previously, nor is it described as being a regular postal service, but it is one of the things which is a preclude to the final judgments upon the earth, testifying to the persecutions of the saints by the devil and world that it fit to be punished.

For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)

Moreover, IIRC any communication btwn created beings from the heavenly and earthly realm required both to someone be both in the same realm, versus believers praying "hear Thou from Heaven" (2 Chronicles 6:21,23,25,27,30,33,35,39).

In contrast, the ONLY example of souls seeking intercession from someone else as to God in Heaven was that of pagans. Like as,

But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes. (Jeremiah 44:17)

106 posted on 11/13/2022 10:53:01 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him who saves, be baptized + follow Him!)
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To: grey_whiskers
What can happen all too often, is that a person says "statement XYZ" then another person hears the part "X" and mentally rushes in to fill in "XAB" instead -- which isn't what the first person said at all.

This is known as conflation.

246 posted on 11/17/2022 7:46:27 AM PST by JesusIsLord
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