Russia cuts gas to Poland as U.S., allies to send Ukraine more heavy weapons

National Post ^ | April 27 2022 | Marek Strzelecki and Tsvetelia Tsolova and Pavel Polityuk

[Kevmo]

We made it our bizness during peacetime when we signed the Budapest Accession to the UN Nuclear NonProliferation Treaty & dismantled their nukes in exchange for border & sovereignty assurances.
Do you ever get tired of spreading this falsehood?
***It is NOT a falsehood. It is a signed accession to a ratified treaty. You just don’t agree with it.

The Budapest Memorandum obliged no such thing.
***It obliges “respect” for Uke borders and sovereignty. If you do not answer this question, I shall treat you as a troll henceforth: Is it a violation of that Budapest Agreement for Russia to INVADE Ukraine? Yes or no. You are applying your a priori classic fallacy here. You’re looking for ways that the agreement OBLIGES us to go in and kick Russian ass. You need to look at it in terms of whether or not the agreement ALLOWS us to go in and kick Russian ass, especially since they are flat wrong in this case. They invaded, Ukraine didn’t. Ukraine HONORED that agreement; Russia VIOLATED it twice in order to take oil & gas.

It never did.
***If INVADING a country is not a violation of that treaty then we can invade Mexico by using that logic. Or by way of that particular agreement, we can simply invade Ukraine and restore those borders — “respect” them using that UN NNPT language — and it wouldn’t be a violation of that treaty, right?

Your willful pretending
***Your willful sidling along a known troll and now coming in and trollfully stirring up shiite is setting you up to be treated as a troll.

that it says otherwise has become loathsome.
***I am finding your late-to-the-argument poison-moralizing to be quite loathsome.

[Brian Griffin]

“The modern history of the Crimean oil and gas industry began in 1960, when the first onshore gas field – Zadornenske – was discovered.”

https://www.naftogaz.com/en/history-of-the-industry

In real life things can be very complex and neither totally just or totally unjust.

I am a frequent blog contributor and not a Ukrainian history professor. I’m pretty sure one will write a book.

[Kevmo]

Arabs and Native Americans sometimes make similar arguments.
***Then my go-to is the bible. Arabs have no clean claims on land that God gave to Israel. Native Americans have more population now than they ever did when they controlled a whole continent. And I was born here, alongside tens or hundreds of millions, so we have a say in that level of bullshiite.

The areas now fought over belonged to the Turks who got much of them off the Byzantines. It was the Russian army that took them off the Turks in the 1790s I believe.
***In Europe and Asia, everyone has a story from 5000 years ago that their ancestors once owned this land. Do you buy into the Kurds and their claim to portions of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and Iran? If we were to recognize their claim to sovereignty they would no longer be the largest people-group without a country. And it would take chunks off 3 enemy lands and a 4th one that isn’t quite as friendly as I think they oughtta be.

Poland I believe held most of Ukraine in the 18th Century.
***How far back we gonna go? Do the French have to apologize for Napoleon and his short-lived conquest of Europe? Do the Germans get to reclaim their lebensraum? This particular conflict is unique because it never woulda happened if the Ukes had not given up their nukes.

[Neanderthal]

"In spite of what most Americans want."

*****************************

Most Americans are dumb. Biden, the Legacy Media and Big Tech have been feeding them nonstop propaganda and censored BS about this. Of course this is what they want when you carefully craft the question and ask them.

[Brian Griffin]

“we can invade Mexico by using that logic”

The history that led up to the Mexican American War has a lot of similarities to that of eastern Ukraine.

The Republic of Texas in what was indisputably Mexican territory declared its independence.

[Kevmo]

Since we’re talking about modern history, in modern times Russia ceded sovereignty and borders of Crimea in 1994. It made sense at the time because otherwise the Ukes could have used those nuke fissionable materials & made a lot of bad, bad nuke bombs with them.

In 2012, more oil & gas was discovered and shortly thereafter, Ras Putin invaded the region in a straightforward conquest because he detected weakness [turns out he was correct] on the part of the concurrent American administration and Europe to do anything about his obvious tyrannical land grab. Then there was a not-so-weak-kneed prez, no activity from Ras Putin. Then there was another weak-kneed prez so Putin invaded again.

[Grzegorz 246]

So Russia will nuke America because they can defeat Ukraine ?

[Brian Griffin]

” it never woulda happened if the Ukes had not given up their nukes”

‘Remember the Ukrainians’ might be a common phrase in nearly every American gun owner’s home.

[Kevmo]

Hey, let’s use those same kinds of excuses to invade Mexico and set up a 100 mile border protection zone to keep out the Narco state and their drugs and their constant flow of illegal colonizers. Sounds good to me.

It is right to uphold Ukrainian sovereignty & borders, especially since we signed an agreement to do so in exchange for nukes. Getting nuke nonproliferation right is important for the whole world.

It is also right for us to fix our border problem. It is right to defend our borders — heck, even to invade Mexico & set up a 100 mile buffer zone of protection against that Narco State Pushing Illegal Colonizers North. It is also right to defend Ukraine’s borders & sovereignty, as we said we would do in the Budapest Agreement. The democraps refuse to do the right thing on Mehico, but are willing to do the right thing on Ukraine. That doesn’t make it wrong to do the right thing with Ukraine, especially when we’re pushing the Ukes into a nuke corner.

I would like to use that viewpoint to justify invading Mexico. It is, after all, a “Clear and Present Danger” state, having become a de facto Narco State, and they are promoting & inculcating invasion and colonization of the USA. So we should invade Mexico, set up that 100 mile wide buffer territory that’s patrolled by US Military rather than DHS, and any illegal colonizers we catch will be deposited on the Mehico side of that buffer zone.

Problem is, it’ll never happen with the uniparty in power. So we’re stuck with doing the right thing about nuclear proliferation and signed agreements towards Uke sovereignty.

[Vaduz]

Putin even has food tasters for him he knows there is no way out of the mess he’s created even in hos country all guns are pointing at him.
Remember how Russian leaders change give it up or else he had a few of his insiders killed he’s not trusted by anybody world wide Ukraine made the list longer.

Illness of death to ensue ?.

[Kevmo]

The problem is that “remember the Ukes” will be used as a calling cry for every tinhorn dictator that wants to rule the ashes of his own country and invade others’ that don’t have nukes — a lot like how the Norks have acted.

[Ultra Sonic 007]

It is NOT a falsehood. It is a signed accession to a ratified treaty. You just don’t agree with it.

You were given primary sources and the words of the men who actually formulated the documents that flatly contradict your interpretation. This has been pointed out to you by numerous FReepers.

History disagrees with you. Deal with it.

It obliges “respect” for Uke borders and sovereignty.

It obliges that the parties involved go to the United Nations. Has that been done? Has the UN authorized any military action to be taken against Russia, or for arms to be delivered to the Ukraine?

If you want America to defend Ukraine via arms delivery or whatnot, go for it: take it through Congress and actually declare war against Russia instead of relying on a toothless document that does not oblige what you say it does.

Your willful sidling along a known troll and now coming in and trollfully stirring up shiite is setting you up to be treated as a troll.

A troll according to who? Oh, just you, the guy who keeps throwing out 'troll' accusations like they're candy.

You're the one acting more like a troll than anyone else on this thread.

I am finding your late-to-the-argument poison-moralizing to be quite loathsome.

For you to condemn anyone for "moralizing" is an obscene level of projection.

[Kevmo]

indisputably Mexican territory
***I believe history records that there WAS a dispute over that concept and the Mexicans lost. Using your wayback historical approach, how did it become 'indisputably Mexican' territory to begin with?

I have my own viewpoint on the land in that region, both Mexican and USA land, extending all the way to Greenland and Siberia.

from my home page:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secession

It's time for us to jettison those who reject our national values because there's no changing them. Time to secede.

We should extend the invitation to secede on a county by county basis.

While we're at it, since we'd be forming a new country, we should extend the invitation to counties in Canada and Mexico as well. Heck, the New America could extend to Greenland and Siberia.

Note that this option is becoming increasingly popular.

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/4000029/posts

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[Brian Griffin]

“After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukraine held about one third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at the time, as well as significant means of its design and production. 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICBMs with ten warheads apiece, as well as 33 heavy bombers, totaling approximately 1,700 warheads remained on Ukrainian territory. Formally, these weapons were controlled by the Commonwealth of Independent States.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine?msclkid=0bb191cec64d11ecb57261f061c0bba3

“In exchange for giving up its nuclear weapons, Ukraine received financial compensation, as well as the security assurances of the Budapest Memorandum.”

“A study published in 2016 in the journal World Affairs ....the United States would also not have made Ukraine an exception when it came to the denuclearization of other post-Soviet states such as Belarus and Kazakhstan”

[Kevmo]

You were given primary sources
***Dude: It is a trolling technique. Say all kinds of troll responses and then once you’re identified as a troll, THAT’s when the guy started posting his wall-of-text bullshiite, and you came in at the end of it. You are propping up a troll and you have become a troll yourself.

and the words of the men who actually formulated the documents that flatly contradict your interpretation.
***By the time your @$$troll friend posted anything like that I had been ignoring him for a long time. You are propping up a troll at the tail end of him trolling, so buzz off.

This has been pointed out to you by numerous FReepers.
***As far as I can tell, only by you. Feel free to post a thread about whatever nonsense you’re trying to push on behalf of your new troll friend. I posted my own thread, you do it.

History disagrees with you. Deal with it.
***Uhh, more like just you disagree with me. I will deal with it.

[Ultra Sonic 007]

It's a mark of trolling to reply to someone's post and list 'troll' so they're not made aware they're being spoken to.

Dude: It is a trolling technique.

Being given primary source documents for a historical matter under dispute...is a trolling technique?? Are you for real?

You've rendered your own credibility worthless.

[Brian Griffin]

“The colonies teetered at the brink of revolt in 1829, after Mexico abolished slavery. In response, President Anastasio Bustamante implemented the Laws of April 6, 1830, which, among other things, prohibited further immigration to Texas from the United States, increased taxes, and reiterated the ban on slavery. Settlers simply circumvented or ignored the laws. By 1834, an estimated 30,000 Anglos lived in Coahuila y Tejas, compared to only 7,800 Mexican-born residents.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Revolution?msclkid=4d98d031c64f11ec8f5335c2a7b96291

[Ultra Sonic 007]

If you'd like better navigation of the diplomatic jargon surrounding the Budapest Memo and what it does (and does not) oblige, I'd recommend the following posts by woodpusher from another thread, since they fully elaborate on the primary sources: here, here, here, and here.

[Kevmo]

Kevmo: It obliges “respect” for Uke borders and sovereignty.
US7: It obliges that the parties involved go to the United Nations.
***Well now, lookie here, another troll maneuver. Don’t address the original contention but just throw in contentions of your own. You really have gone down the troll path. Yes it obliges respect and an invasion is NOT respecting the borders, hence, it is a violation of the treaty. Yes the parties have gone to the useless UN.

Has that been done?
***Yes the parties have gone to the useless UN.

Has the UN authorized any military action to be taken against Russia, or for arms to be delivered to the Ukraine?
***Just within the last few days there has been a coalition of 40 countries setting things up to send weapons to Ukraine to fight Russia. The UN has not yet authorized military action because they’re incredibly slow and Ukraine would have been lost by now. Since this border dispute is covered in the UN NNPT and its Budapest Accession, you should be asking if the “UN authorized any military action to be taken BY Russia, or for arms to be delivered to the Ukraine at the murderous Bizness End?” But you aint asking those questions because of your a priori approach to this whole episode.

If you want America to defend Ukraine via arms delivery or whatnot, go for it: take it through Congress
***I believe it is being taken through congress and multiple $Billions have been allocated for it. So what is your point?

and actually declare war against Russia
***We didn’t even declare war against Vietnam nor Afghanistan. The last time we declared war was when it was an existential threat, ww2. Why is it that you are pushing things back to such a time? Oh, it is because of your a priori approach towards this whole thing.

instead of relying on a toothless document
***If it’s toothless to PREVENT an invasion by Russia then it’s toothless to STOP that 40-nation coalition from kicking Russia’s ass on Ukrainian territory. What’s toothless sauce for the goose is toothless sauce for the gander.

that does not oblige what you say it does.
***You’re all hooked on this lookin-for-obligation thing because you are stuck on stupid with your a priori approach towards foreign conflicts. You think “All foreign conflicts are none of our bizness so we should stay out of foreign conflicts” and then you proceed from there to look for obligations rather than simply doing the right thing. Russia invaded Ukraine. It’s a violation of that Budapest thing. Very simple reasoning. But it eludes you.

Kevmo: Your willful sidling along a known troll and now coming in and trollfully stirring up shiite is setting you up to be treated as a troll.
US7: A troll according to who?
***I follow the Free Republic DEFINITION, just like I follow the FR definition of conservatism. https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2165967/posts

Oh, just you, the guy who keeps throwing out ‘troll’ accusations like they’re candy.
***Sounds like a toothless definition, right up your ally. And you passed up the chance to moderate this particular dispute, showing where your intentions lie.

You’re the one acting more like a troll than anyone else on this thread.
***I’d say the same about you, Mr. latecomer-to-the-argument, but you aint in listenin’ mode.

I am finding your late-to-the-argument poison-moralizing to be quite loathsome.

For you to condemn anyone for “moralizing” is an obscene level of projection.

[Brian Griffin]

“The Treaty of Limits between the United Mexican States and the United States of America is an 1828 treaty between Mexico and the United States that confirmed the borders between the two states.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Limits_(Mexico%E2%80%93United_States)