Just watched "The Greatest Story Ever Told"

I've never read the Bible. Hardly ever went to church so I have a problem with this. I didn't think anyone could make Sal Mineo walk in just a few minutes. Make the blind man see and bring Lazarus back to life? Come on. A thief steals a coat and Jesus tells the victim to offer more. Whatever happened to thou shall not steal?

Here's what I'm getting at. Too many people want nothing more than to be led by a messiah. Walk on water and I'll follow you too. Doesn't mean I have to believe someone who claimed it happened.

Or not.. but you will only get what you deserve, not what you want.

Haven't gone to see what this (your remark) is a reply to, but...

If anyone / some "entity" (divine or otherwise), offered me something that I didn't deserve, that I hadn't earned, I'd spit in its eye!

I don't want compassion/mercy (which always necessitates a certain measure of "looking the other way" - i.e., discounting reality); rather, I want justice!

Having said that, let me hasten to add that, if the religionists are right, then life is a "fixed" game to begin with (i.e., the odds were unfairly against us from the start). The implications of that statement should be obvious to all.

Regards,

not to mention that those religions that were quoted aren’t known by billions of people like the bible is

1.2 billion Indians (among others) would like to have a word with you!

Those other holy texts didn’t have a God that was sent to be crucified on our behalf

And those other religionists will make some analogous statement: "Those Christians don't have a God who [insert some other half-baked historically dubious and/or patently ridiculous claim here!]"

Nor did they do the miracles or have prophecies- over 600 many which have already come completely true

Those "600 prophecies" have "come true" only if you are willing to accept extremely strained explanations and distortions. Also, numerous prophecies have FAILED to come true as promised.

EVERY religion has so-called "miracles" and "prophecies." Go down to your nearest, e.g., Mormon temple if you want to learn more!

Regards,

“This verse, like others in the passage, is routinely torn from its context and abused by critics and well-meaning Christians alike. This is not a blanket command given to all believers. Nor is it even implying that shedding wealth is, itself, a necessary or pious thing. This is a specific remark given to a specific person, and for a specific reason. That reason was set up by everything which came before this part of the conversation.... Such a shame that, at the end of Jesus' rebuke / admonition, He didn't include the explanation you have provided here! Would have prevented so-oo much misunderstanding!

"Look, folks! I was just now speaking ONLY to this one guy here, understand? What I said? I wasn't formulating a GENERAL RULE! Get it?"

Regards,

is first that you reject the supernatural, and thus can only imagine that an infinitely vast, irreducibly complex yet ordered (thus disorder is manifest an aberration) universe and all that is in it - including the DNA of man - came to be by natural means, and chance, without a supreme mighty intelligence who could create matter out of nothing.... Your next problem is that documented miracles abound, by the grace of God, such as the videos here:

"Can you cite counter-examples? I.e., people who devoutly believed and prayed and yet were not cured? I would expect that there are quite a few such cases."

Certainly, so what kind of argument against the supernatural is that? Somewhere it seems that you read my response as claiming that all such seeking results in a miracle, or that it must, but in which case you are arguing against someone other than the God of the Bible.

Perhaps you want to argue that a uniquely omniscient and omnipotent being, who sees all the effects of even the time it took you to eat today, for this life and for eternity, and can make all things work out for that which is good, just as well as merciful and gracious, must prevent or counteract all the direct and indirect negative effects of our disobedience and misuse of what He gave us? Just what is your argument?

"Further, can you cite examples of people belonging to other confessions (Buddhist, Hindu, etc.) who prayed to their deity and were miraculously healed? Again: I would expect that there are quite a few such cases. What does that tell us?"

It tells you just what I argued against, that there is a supernatural realm, as Scripture states (Moses himself faced some real professional competition, yet overcame them), yet testimony to supernatural effects in heart and in life abound far more in scope and dept among those of Christian faith than any other, from the vast number of hymns to documented accounts. Once one discards the atheistic faith-fantasy that all such can be naturally explained (not just that such could occur via natural forces, which God often used, but all that must occur for such events) then they can deal with who is the ultimate source of the universe and powers that be.

The typical atheistic argument that you left out was that fabrications abound in claims of the supernatural, which is certainly true, as well as that (the few) controlled experiments failed to conclusively prove the supernatural, yet such are based upon a faulty premise, as far more factors are involved in life. Christ Himself did not operate in a controlled laboratory type setting. Yet every effect has a cause, and examination of such does attest to both fraud, imagination as well as what cannot be explained by natural means. However, the lost are willing to believe that an infinitely vast, irreducibly complex yet ordered universe and all that is in it came to be by unguided natural means, and for the hardened atheist nothing can be allowed to disabuse them of their faith in nature, chance and time, like Dawkins, who basically admitted nothing could be allowed to change his desired anti-theist position,

Certainly [one could cite counter-examples, i.e., people who devoutly believed and prayed and yet were not cured], so what kind of argument against the supernatural is that? Somewhere it seems that you read my response as claiming that all such seeking results in a miracle, or that it must, but in which case you are arguing against someone other than the God of the Bible.

I have, as yet, advanced no argument at all, either for or against the existence of "the supernatural."

(Actually, I had already gotten the impression that we weren't discussing merely "the supernatural" - which might conceivably encompass a very wide field of phenomenon, even possibly independent of the existence of a Supreme Deity - incl. but not limited to: poltergeists, E.S.P., etc. Rather, I had thought that we had already narrowed the discussion down to the divinity of Jesus Christ.)

Rather, I am still attempting to understand your position.

However, it is still unclear to me whether you believe in a Christian God (and all that that entails: omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence), especially as that relates to the issue of Sin.

Apparently (if I understood your words above), when devout persons pray fervently for the healing of, say, a terminally ill 2-year-old, to no avail, this should be attributed to the "direct and indirect negative effects of our disobedience and misuse of what He gave us?"

Am I correct in assuming that, by "disobedience/misuse," you are referring to sinful behavior? I.e., to Sin? For some reason, you refrained from employing that word, so I am asking you know to be more explicit.

Are you THUS saying that, when intercessory prayers fail and miracles are not granted to alleviate the suffering of, say, a terminally ill 2-year-old, this is best explained as the "direct/indirect negative effect" of Sin?

Just a question!

SECONDLY:

It [people belonging to other confessions (Buddhist, Hindu, etc.) praying to their deity and being miraculously healed] tells you just what I argued against, that there is a supernatural realm, as Scripture states (Moses himself faced some real professional competition, yet overcame them)

What?! Did you argue AGAINST a supernatural realm? Now I'm confused!

In any event: You are being vague. Are you stating that such "miracles" (prayed for by non-Christians) are the work of "Dark Forces?" Again: For some reason, you refrained from exactly stating what you meant, so I am asking you know to be more explicit. Are you, in fact, referring to "demonic powers" or such?

Just another question!

Regards,

An analogy From a website explaining why people go to hell willingly, and not forced to do so by some cruel heartless ogre of a God.

“I was on duty on the Coast Guard Rescue boat the other morning, when I spotted what I thought was drowning woman. A mile or so off shore, she was treading water and looked quite weary and dehydrated. We sped over to help her, but she swam away from the life preservers we tossed her, she wouldn’t grab hold of the lifeguard hooks we extended to her, and she swam away from the life raft and swimmers we sent out to help her. It was bizarre.

I asked her if she wanted some help—actually expecting her to be relieved and even grateful, and she screamed “no, go away!”—even though every now and then she would literally sink under water for a few minutes at a time, and come up frantically gasping for air. She said she was “doing fine without help”, and that she intended to stay out there forever like that, just “doing fine”.

I pointed out to her that she looked exhausted, dehydrated, seemed ready to drown any minute, and that she would be too tired to make it to shore if she waited much later—and she denied it. She said it wasn’t really all that bad, that she had made it okay so far on her own, and that she could no doubt keep it up indefinitely.

I told her I thought she obviously needed medical attention, rest, water, and she refused. She said she was her “own person” and that I could not force her to get out of the water. I told her, cautiously—since she would go ballistic whenever I tried to help her—that I didn’t think she was in any mental state to be able to make such decisions, and that I would have to subdue her and force her into the boat—for her own good. And you should have heard the curses, threats of lawsuits, murder, suicide from her...as she constantly kept swimming away from our boat and from our every attempt to rescue her...

“I kept sending people out, but she kept evading them...I offered and begged and offered and pleaded and offered and implored...and she railed and railed and railed...and always swam away further...and about sundown she went under for the last time...why wouldn’t she accept the free help? I’ll never know...I was in anguish for weeks and weeks over this senseless loss... “

https://www.christian-thinktank.com/meorburn.html

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