Posted on 12/04/2021 4:50:53 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
Like the sinking of the Titanic, the assassination of John F. Kennedy has been a subject of fascination for me over the years.
I remember perusing Mom and Dad's copy of the Warren Commision Report with great interest. I remember, earlier than that, repeatedly combing through the National Geographic issue shortly after the assassination and developing a crush on Caroline Kennedy who would have been about my age at that time. In Jr. High School I wrote a short paper based on Mark Lane's assertion of a second assassin or more and conspiracies surrounding the event.
The presentation given here has a way of objectively questioning dependence on the Zapruder film as definitive of the sequence of what happened. Holland pins down the timing at closer to 11 seconds, rather than 6 seconds using sound reasoning.
It takes time to watch, but is worth it. On a side note, this past summer I had the privilege of walking laps around the inside of Pembroke Mall in Virginia Beach with Secret Service Agent Win Lawson's widow (during vacation accompanying my father-in-law for his daily walking exercise). Win is mentioned at some length here, and his stated conviction that there was a gap between the first shot and remaining shots is vindicated by Holland's research.
They never show it, but the Zapruder film takes in the whole grassy knoll and ends with a view behind the picket fence. Nothing there behind the fence. And Zapruder had been in the army. If a rifle had gone off from behind the picket fence, it would have been about 25 feet to his right, and he was looking down on that area. An army person who did not hear that supposed shot? And would have been able to look down at that scene? Nope. The top of the picket fence was at the level of his feet, as well as his secretary who were standing on that concrete wing looking over Dealey Plaza.
Not buying it. A SS person would have to stand up in the following car, and take a shot, and then sit back down. In no photos or the films taken that day, and no witnesses noticed that? And if the SS guy was in the back seat and that happened, then the driver and front seat passenger would have had an ear drum blown out. Not buying it.
Not buying it. A SS person would have to stand up in the following car, and take a shot, and then sit back down. In no photos or the films taken that day, and no witnesses noticed that? And if the SS guy was in the back seat and that happened, then the driver and front seat passenger would have had an ear drum blown out. Not buying it.
That photo os from the 6th floor window. SS is a little late here pulling out their M-14 rifle after they passed under the triple overpass.
Please explain the magic bullet then that dropped onto the stretcher at Parkland.
OSWALD was a patsy.
Look in to a man called Malcom Wallace. And how he was a Hit man for LBJ and LBJ got him out of jail. The trail leads to the 6th floor.
Whether the SS agent remained standing or sat down after the shot does not negate whether the fatal shot occurred. But the SS agent had to be standing for that shot to be made.
Look at the picture another posted on #63. That person standing with the gun in the car behind is identified as SS agent Hickey. I believe that is an AP photo copy. Seeing the agent in the foreground crawling on the back of the trunk of the POTUS limo makes it appear the Oswald and the SS Agent’s shots already occurred.
As far as witnesses, that is a legitimate question. But even with no witnesses or conflicting witness testimony, it would also be legitimate to ask whether the SS gun ever inspected to show a shot was or was never fired?
Donahue analyzed the ballistics and the trajectories. I have to tell you, it is quite a compelling analysis. The publisher had health skepticism. It did not have to publish the book and claims a history of not publishing wild-ass JFK conspiracy theory books. COnsider the publisher’s comment on page 247:
“Up until now, the report of the Herings of the House Select Committee has been the most detailed, careful, authoritative study available of the ballistics issues involved in the assassination of [JFK]. It is significant to us that Donahue’s technical analysis proved more trustworthy than the [Committee’s].”
You are free to “not buy it” the SS agent fired [accidentally] the fatal shot. My opinion is that you are shortchanging yourself by not reading about Donahue’s analysis who has considered more evidence, done calculations than all of us on this thread added together.
And he had no ax to grind or conspiracy theory to promote. He was dismissed by many others who the publisher came to realize ... others who dismissed him “on the basis of palpable nonfacts (p 252). [If] we cannot attest to [the certainty of Donahue’s analysis] it may be because of a natural reluctance to concede that such bad luck [by being accidentally killed by one’s own security detail], so unlikely and chaotic an accident, can prevail in this world. But to disbelieve solely because it was a long shot is its own species of irrationality.” (p 254)
You are exactly right.
I have read it and do not buy it. That picture is fond in the 6th Floor Museum and was taken at about 150 yards past the triple overpass nand not in Dealey Plaza.
No problem, you’ve read the Menninger book, and formed your opinion. I respect our differences of opinion here.
As far as your additional description of the picture ... does not disprove Donahue’s analysis even if it was taken where and when you described it as being taken. - SS agent, armed, in SS detail car that was directly behind the JFK limo when it was in Dealey Plaza. Agent able to stand in car.
Caroline Kennedy was a low-I.Q. dolt before Biden made it fashionable.
All that is true, but no one testified he was standing while in Dealey Plaza, and the photo is outside Dealey Plaza, as listed in the 6th Floor Museum.
You stated ... “[B]ut no one testified he was standing while in Dealey Plaza, and the photo is outside Dealey Plaza, as listed in the 6th Floor Museum.”
Here is what Menninger wrote about that .....
“In its narrative of the assassination,the Warren Commission did mention in passing that ‘Special Agent George W. Hickey Jr, in the rear seat of the Presidential follow-up car, picked up and cocked an automatic rifle as he heard the last shot... At this point the cars were speeding through the underpass and had left the scene of the shooting but Hickey kept the automatic weapon ready as the car raced to the hospital.’ “
:
:
“Donahue spotted several inaccuracies and omissions in this [Commission’s]statement.
First, Hickey had picked up the gun before - not after - the last shot, according to both Glen Bennett, the agent who sat beside him, and S.M. Holland, the railroader who had watched the motorcade from atop the triple overpass.
“Similarly, the Warren Commission’s statement that Hickey did not pick up the gun until the motorcade was speeding through the underpass was contradicted by no fewer than eight eyewitnesses... plus [5 named] agents had all reported Hickey had the gun in hand at or just after the time of the shots, well before the cars disappeared into the underpass.
“Similarly the Warren report further asserted that Hickey had cocked the gun after he had picked it up. But [Secret Service Agent] Roy Kellerman had testified that the AR-15 was on the floor of the car and “ready to go”, i.e. loaded and cocked.”
See Menninger book, Copyright 1992, p220
But you did not answer Fester Chugabrew’s question; “Is there positive evidence the projectiles differed in caliber? By that I mean is there a available for inspection today a projectile known to have pierced JFK that could not possibly have been fired through Oswald’s rifle? That would go a long way in confirming Donahue’s scenario”.
Took a look at the book and some of the reviews on Amazon. There are some ways in which Donahue’s efforts could clear the air.
One would think the aural experience of those proximal to the event would easily hone in on differing sound and location for each shot fired. A shot fired from a building 100 yards away elevated would sound considerably different than one fired from a car passing 25 yards away on the ground. Maybe Donahue’s work explores and explains that angle. I would think the result of a bullet passing through soft flesh vs. a bullet striking the skull would differ considerably as well in the way of fragmentation. Just my amateur thoughts.
I am not a gun, ballistics or trajectory expert. The book I cited goes through a lot more scenarios than the single question that you are asking. For example, can the same manufactured bullet cause two completely different injuries when shot from the same gun? Could Oswald have fired two different bullets from the same gun that caused two different injuries? And so on. It is very thorough analysis.
The Warren Commission concluded:
(1) Oswald acted alone;
(2) Oswald fired 3 shots from the 6th floor of the library / book depository where he worked (3 spent shells found at the depository came from the same lot of full metal-jacketed 6.5 mm ammunition made by East Alton, Illinois-based Western Cartridge Co.);
(3) One shot missed;
(4) One shot hit JFK in the neck;
(5) One shot struck JFK in the head.
(6) Jack Ruby acted impulsively when he killed Ruby driven by temporary insanity.
Donahue concluded in part:
(7) there were two different bullets that hit JFK;
(8) bullets were fired from different guns;
(9) the guns were at different locations in the plaza area;
(A) bullet that went through JFK’s neck came from Oswald’s gun; (the 6.5 mm bullet fired from Oswald’s gun was found at the hospital after it dropped from Connelly’s thigh);
(B) the head shot bullet came from Secret Service gun accidentally triggered by Agent Hickey.
This book would make a great Christmas present and interesting reading for many here. It will probably answer all your questions you have, and others you haven’t thought yet about asking. Read it with an open mind, see if it makes sense to you. Note that Donahue wanted to believe the Warren Commission findings. He even hesitated to out Agent Hickey. It changed the way I see this event. To date, no one (especially the givernment) has factually refuted Donahue to date. His ballistics and trajectory analysis is quite strong, and refutes the record. We’ll all be dead and gone before Donahue gets some type of recognition. Hell, people are still studying Ane Lincoln’s assassination.
The book also covers the “aural evidence”. The book covers the trajectory angles too.
Your amateur thoughts approach professional level compared to my amateur thoughts.
I am not asking for someone elses supposition. I am asking for proof. Is there any fragment proving a different gun was used?
If not then say so.
Several problems. It was not an AR 15 but a M 14. Big difference,
And if he had fired that weapon he would have blown out the ear drums of 2 Secret Service men.
Several problems. It was not an AR 15 but a M 14. Big difference,
And if he had fired that weapon he would have blown out the ear drums of 2 Secret Service men.
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