How safe are the COVID vaccines? Here is how COVID vaccines rank among 94 vaccine types in terms of reported post-vaccine adverse effects.

I am going to repeat again “The CDC has not attributed the death of ANY of those 1,637 people to ANYTHING.

No, but they reviewed them and effectively eliminated the vaccine as the cause.

”A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths””

The CDC itself says that their VAER is “Not designed to assess causality.”

Of course not. It’s designed to alert the community to potential issues, but you pretend like the CDC stops there. They don’t. They investigate those deaths and so far haven’t found a vaccine problem.

... you have no idea what the attending doctors of those 1,637 deaths determined.

True, but I know they didn’t blame the vaccine and that the available data provided to the CDC and FDA for their post-VAERS reviews didn’t show evidence that the vaccine was the cause.

Can I say for sure it wasn’t the vaccine? No, but when the professionals trained to find evidence can’t find it I know which way to bet.

You’re belief that “they reviewed them and effectively eliminated the vaccine as the cause” is incorrect. I repeat again what the chief Medical Examiner said.

Dr. Erik Christensen, Utah’s chief Medical Examiner, said proving vaccine injury as a cause of death almost never happens. “Did the vaccine cause this? I think that would be very hard to demonstrate in autopsy,” he said.

Erik can think of only one instance where you would see a vaccine as the cause of death on an official autopsy report and that would be in an immediate case of Anaphylaxis. One where a person received the vaccine and died almost instantaneously. “Short of that” he said, “it would be difficult for us to definitively say this is the vaccine.” A more likely result, would be a lack of answers or an “incomplete autopsy.”

The autopsy, he said, can provide answers to a family when no disease or red flags are found. As Erik explained, “that we don’t see a competing cause of death.” That lack of answers may help them understand if the vaccine was a possible cause.

He says that it would be very hard to determine in an autopsy that a vaccine contributed to the death.

You’re belief that “they reviewed them and effectively eliminated the vaccine as the cause” is incorrect.

It isn't my belief, it's what the CDC says and I provided you the link to where they say it. They and the FDA may be lying but that's a different issue.

Utah’s chief Medical Examiner, said proving vaccine injury as a cause of death almost never happens...

Fair enough, but if the autopsy provided proof there would be no need for the CDC and FDA to review the deaths. In fact, the uncertainties the ME describes are exactly why they do the review - to look for evidence, not proof, that the vaccine contributed to the death. To date they haven't found that evidence.

The CDC has clearly stated that they do these reviews and there's no conflict with what the Utah ME says.

What exactly is your point? That we'll never see a case where a vaccine contributed to a death so we just have to assume it did based on a totally invalid statistical analysis?

My point is that it is very difficult to PROVE that vaccines cause death. You can’t prove it with an autopsy (and btw very few of these deaths are autopsied anyway.) So what definitive evidence are you looking for? As the medical examiner indicated you can only look for competing reasons for the death and if there are none “That lack of answers may help them (the family) understand if the vaccine was a possible cause.”

The CDC isn’t claiming that the vaccines did not cause anyone’s death. They are saying “To date, VAERS has not detected patterns in cause of death that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines.” For them to conclude that the vaccine is responsible for deaths they would need a “pattern” and “to date” they have not “detected” any.

I have also given you verbatim Norway information. They did conclude that the vaccine was contributing to the deaths of the elderly. They accepted the “pattern.” They stopped giving the vaccine to elderly (75 years old) people.

Alex Berenson (this morning): “The #covid mRNA vaccines now account for more side effect reports to VAERS since December than EVERY OTHER VACCINE COMBINED in the last year.”

“And 8 times the number of death reports.”

So what definitive evidence are you looking for?

I like the kind produced by rigorous, randomized, double-blind clinical trials, such as the ones done on the Pfizer, Moderna and J&J vaccines. They tracked tens of thousands of people who got either the vaccine or a placebo and compared outcomes between the two groups.

You can find full details on each of these studies here: COVID-19 Vaccines.

Unlike some ad hoc analysis of the self-reported VAERS data, the trials track two distinct populations throughout the entire process. If receiving the vaccine increased the likelihood of death relative to the control group it would show up in the numbers. It didn't.

Don't like clinical trials? How about real world scenarios? Israel monitored their vaccine program and matched about 500k recipients with an equal number of people with similar demographics who didn't get the vaccine. The results are very impressive and indicate no problem with vaccine safety and in fact a very significant reduction in mortality in those who got the vaccine.

BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine in a Nationwide Mass Vaccination Setting

They are saying “To date, VAERS has not detected patterns in cause of death that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines.” For them to conclude that the vaccine is responsible for deaths they would need a “pattern” and “to date” they have not “detected” any.

How many times do you need to see CDC's statement that they go well beyond looking for patterns and actually examine the evidence on a case-by-case basis? And when they do so they aren't looking for "proof", just evidence, which they haven't found?

"A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."

Why can't you acknowledge that?

They did conclude that the vaccine was contributing to the deaths of the elderly...

They said

"concluded that common adverse reactions of mRNA vaccines, such as fever, nausea, and diarrhoea, may have contributed to fatal outcomes in some of the frail patients."

Those are common side effects of many vaccines and it may be prudent to limit vaccinating old, frail patients for anything.

“The #covid mRNA vaccines now account for more side effect reports to VAERS since December than EVERY OTHER VACCINE COMBINED in the last year.”

“And 8 times the number of death reports.”

So? Given the huge number of vaccinations and the attention they've gotten I'd fully expect more people to report some weird event that occurred after the shot. That's not an indication of anything other than the awareness people have around this vaccine.

This kind of self-reported data with no control group to compare it to is useless for drawing conclusions. What we need to know is just what we saw in the clinical trials and the Israeli study; what were the outcomes in people who got the vaccine vs those who didn't. VARES is less than useful in providing that information.

Leaving aside that it is ridiculous to think that clinical trials done by drug manufacturers with a vested interest are the definitive evidence of drug efficacy and safety; it is widespread knowledge that drugs in clinical use rarely reach the efficacy or the safety results seen in trials.

And leaving aside that the VAERS data that you disparge is the exact data the the CDC uses to examine safety when the drug is in clinical use.

I have read all the covid vaccine briefing books. The trials deliberately limited the enrollment of people over 75 which is a common thing to do in a clinical trial for obvious reasons.

The following is from JAMA. (JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association is a peer-reviewed medical journal published 48 times a year by the American Medical Association. It publishes original research, reviews, and editorials covering all aspects of biomedicine.”)

“Our findings indicate that older adults are likely to be excluded from more than 50% of COVID-19 clinical trials and 100% of vaccine trials. Such exclusion will limit the ability to evaluate the efficacy, dosage, and adverse effects of the intended treatments. We acknowledge that some exclusions for severe or uncontrolled comorbidities will be essential to protect the health and safety of older adults. However, caution must be taken to avoid excluding otherwise eligible participants for reasons that are not well-justified.

“Even without stated age-based exclusions, several recently published clinical trials of COVID-19 treatments had young age ranges, such as 1 recent study4 with a median age of only 40 years, meaning there would be no or few participants over age 75.

“If the older age group is excluded from vaccine trials, efforts to ensure effectiveness, titrate dosage or frequency, and assess adverse effects in the group most vulnerable to COVID-19 will not be possible.”

Let me share with you some of that data from the clinical trials that you hold in such high regard. The following is from Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine VRBPAC Briefing Document

“The small number participants and cases in some subgroups, such as participants >75 years of age and
participants in certain racial subgroups, limits the interpretability of the individual VE results, but
are displayed for completeness.”

...it is widespread knowledge that drugs in clinical use rarely reach the efficacy or the safety results seen in trials.

Did you look at the results of the real-world example in Israel that I posted? It showed 94% to 96% efficacy across all age groups who got it.

...the VAERS data that you disparge is the exact data the the CDC uses to examine safety when the drug is in clinical use.

Nonsense. At best it serves as an alert system to tell the CDC to examine more deeply. They then do detailed case-by-case reviews to evaluate safety. They would be nuts to rely on VAERS as anything more reliable than an internet poll.

The trials deliberately limited the enrollment of people over 75 which is a common thing to do in a clinical trial for obvious reasons.

Can you point me to a reference for this?

The fact that there weren't too many people in the Moderna study over 75 means what to you?

Again, what's the point of all this data lawyering?

The vaccines have been shown in trials and proven in real life applications to be both safe and effective for adult populations, including those over 75. Do you think seniors should take the vaccine, and if not, why not?

You’re hopeless...:-)

I read all the Israeli data and opinion. It was the early leader in vaccinating.

Berenson: @pfizer claim Israeli data show their vaccine cut Covid deaths by 97% when vaccinated people made up almost 1/2 of all Israeli Covid deaths in February and “fully vaccinated” people about 20%.”

“Not published, much less peer reviewed. No actual numbers of deaths or severe cases. No confidence intervals. No explanation of the adjustments for age or comorbidities that must have been made to get to the numbers they claim.”

Pharmaceutical Equity Research Analyst:

“All this real world vaccine data is garbage. They are essentially comparing unvaxxed people in the peak of the winter surge to vaxxed people after the virus is gone. If they don’t get the answer they want, it’s adjusted with hazard ratios (age, socieodemographic, age, illness, etc.) to match what the dodgy clinical trials found, and voila the headlines concur with the clinical trials, which did not include the old and the very ill.”

“Public Health England study. 48% increase in infections after pfizer first dose, and 44% increase with AZ. Second Pfizer dose is 30% increase. Increasing susceptibility and reactivating dormant virus are the likely mechanisms in my view.”

You ask can I point you to a reference about deliberately limiting older clinical trial participants....?????

Did you even read my post? I gave you TWO references. The Journal of American Medical Association and Moderna itself and now I just gave you a third one above.

Then you ask what it means to me that there weren’t too many over 75 in the trials. Are you kidding me? Why do you think they instituted a world wide vaccination campaign? Because the average age of people who have died in the U.S. from (or with) covid is 79. That is the most vulnerable group and the vaccine trials deliberately limited them so as not to drive the results down.

Finally you ask me if I think seniors should take the vaccine. I think EVERYONE should become as informed as possible and then make whatever decision they think is best for them.

“Informed consent”

My dad, who was almost 80 and had dementia, congestive heart failure and renal failure - died 2 weeks after his 2nd vaccination at the memory care unit where he was living in January.

My best friends dad (mid 80’s) died a few days before my dad - also with dementia and in a nursing home - 2 week after his 2nd vaccination.

My sisters friends grandfather died 2 weeks after his 2nd vaccination (he had cancer)

Of course, NONE of these were healthy individuals and were elderly and had lots of other health issues.

But it does make you wonder......

I am so conflicted about this. We had hoped and prayed that my dad would not live for years and years in a confused daze of his dementia.
So while I’m pissed if this is WHY he died....it’s also something we wanted to happen sooner rather than later. I just try not to dwell on it. ;-(

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