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To: Cathi
So what definitive evidence are you looking for?

I like the kind produced by rigorous, randomized, double-blind clinical trials, such as the ones done on the Pfizer, Moderna and J&J vaccines. They tracked tens of thousands of people who got either the vaccine or a placebo and compared outcomes between the two groups.

You can find full details on each of these studies here: COVID-19 Vaccines.

Unlike some ad hoc analysis of the self-reported VAERS data, the trials track two distinct populations throughout the entire process. If receiving the vaccine increased the likelihood of death relative to the control group it would show up in the numbers. It didn't.

Don't like clinical trials? How about real world scenarios? Israel monitored their vaccine program and matched about 500k recipients with an equal number of people with similar demographics who didn't get the vaccine. The results are very impressive and indicate no problem with vaccine safety and in fact a very significant reduction in mortality in those who got the vaccine.

BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine in a Nationwide Mass Vaccination Setting

They are saying “To date, VAERS has not detected patterns in cause of death that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines.” For them to conclude that the vaccine is responsible for deaths they would need a “pattern” and “to date” they have not “detected” any.

How many times do you need to see CDC's statement that they go well beyond looking for patterns and actually examine the evidence on a case-by-case basis? And when they do so they aren't looking for "proof", just evidence, which they haven't found?

"A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."

Why can't you acknowledge that?

They did conclude that the vaccine was contributing to the deaths of the elderly...

They said

"concluded that common adverse reactions of mRNA vaccines, such as fever, nausea, and diarrhoea, may have contributed to fatal outcomes in some of the frail patients."

Those are common side effects of many vaccines and it may be prudent to limit vaccinating old, frail patients for anything.

“The #covid mRNA vaccines now account for more side effect reports to VAERS since December than EVERY OTHER VACCINE COMBINED in the last year.”

“And 8 times the number of death reports.”

So? Given the huge number of vaccinations and the attention they've gotten I'd fully expect more people to report some weird event that occurred after the shot. That's not an indication of anything other than the awareness people have around this vaccine.

This kind of self-reported data with no control group to compare it to is useless for drawing conclusions. What we need to know is just what we saw in the clinical trials and the Israeli study; what were the outcomes in people who got the vaccine vs those who didn't. VARES is less than useful in providing that information.

65 posted on 03/12/2021 12:31:15 PM PST by semimojo
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To: semimojo

Leaving aside that it is ridiculous to think that clinical trials done by drug manufacturers with a vested interest are the definitive evidence of drug efficacy and safety; it is widespread knowledge that drugs in clinical use rarely reach the efficacy or the safety results seen in trials.

And leaving aside that the VAERS data that you disparge is the exact data the the CDC uses to examine safety when the drug is in clinical use.

I have read all the covid vaccine briefing books. The trials deliberately limited the enrollment of people over 75 which is a common thing to do in a clinical trial for obvious reasons.

The following is from JAMA. (JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association is a peer-reviewed medical journal published 48 times a year by the American Medical Association. It publishes original research, reviews, and editorials covering all aspects of biomedicine.”)

“Our findings indicate that older adults are likely to be excluded from more than 50% of COVID-19 clinical trials and 100% of vaccine trials. Such exclusion will limit the ability to evaluate the efficacy, dosage, and adverse effects of the intended treatments. We acknowledge that some exclusions for severe or uncontrolled comorbidities will be essential to protect the health and safety of older adults. However, caution must be taken to avoid excluding otherwise eligible participants for reasons that are not well-justified.

“Even without stated age-based exclusions, several recently published clinical trials of COVID-19 treatments had young age ranges, such as 1 recent study4 with a median age of only 40 years, meaning there would be no or few participants over age 75.

“If the older age group is excluded from vaccine trials, efforts to ensure effectiveness, titrate dosage or frequency, and assess adverse effects in the group most vulnerable to COVID-19 will not be possible.”

Let me share with you some of that data from the clinical trials that you hold in such high regard. The following is from Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine VRBPAC Briefing Document

“The small number participants and cases in some subgroups, such as participants >75 years of age and
participants in certain racial subgroups, limits the interpretability of the individual VE results, but
are displayed for completeness.”


66 posted on 03/12/2021 2:07:02 PM PST by Cathi
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