Kasserine Pass: America's Most Humiliating Defeat of World War II

The National Interest ^ | February 25, 2017 | Michael Peck

[L.A.Justice]

Beware a Desert Fox when he’s cornered.

It was North Africa, in the winter of 1943, and American soldiers were feeling cocky as they prepared for their first ground battle against the Germans in World War II. So far, it hadn’t been a bad war for the U.S. Army. The GIs were well fed, well paid and well equipped, especially compared to their threadbare and envious British allies. Even better, their baptism by fire had been to splash ashore in Algeria and Morocco in November 1942, where the defenders had been unmotivated Vichy French soldiers who soon capitulated.

Maybe defeating Hitler wouldn’t be so hard, after all.

The GIs should have remembered what the British had learned the hard way: never underestimate the Germans. Soon Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, admiringly dubbed the “Desert Fox” by the British, would teach the rookie Americans a lesson on the art of war at a dusty defile called Kasserine Pass.

[Joe 6-pack]

"If we had stood our ground in Vietnam against communism we might not be where we are at today."

Particularly if we had stood against it at home. Jane Fonda, John Kerry and many of their ilk should have been tried for treason.

[fortes fortuna juvat]

What was immoral was all those Americans openly supporting the enemy and pretending that it was for “peace”.
..............................................
Some of us will never forget or forgive the traitor Hanoi Jane Fonda who disgraced herself, her family, and her country shilling for the enemy.

[FLT-bird]

Incompetent commander and very green troops vs experienced troops and a very good commander. It wasn’t difficult to predict we’d get our asses kicked the first time.

[Theophilus]

You can see how the experiences of this battle shaped Patton’s fameous “Somewhere in England, June 5th” speech.

[GreyFriar]

Battle of Kasserine Pass Ping.

Here are two additional articles that examines LTG Fredendall’s performance at Kasserine Pass:

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/command-failure-lloyd-fredendall-and-the-battle-of-kasserine-pass/

https://www.historynet.com/fredendalls-art-of-war.htm

Also, one correction to the movie Patton is that all German tanks produced during WWII had GASOLINE engines, NOT diesel. The Soviets used diesel in all their tanks.

[Chainmail]

"Some of us will never forget or forgive the traitor Hanoi Jane Fonda who disgraced herself, her family, and her country shilling for the enemy."

Oh, it was a lot more that Jane Fonda - she was a traitor and should have faced a trial - but there were thousands of other cold-eyed traitors with her. Look up Irving Sarnoff and Dorothy Healey, and the whole Communist Party USA and the Socialist Worker's Party and all of their suborganizations and useful idiots supporting them.

Their aim was to get the NVA to win and for us to lose and they corresponded continuously with the enemy throughout our war, while our own young men were dying and being mutilated for their sake.

I've never understood why our "Justice Department" never lifted a finger to stop them.

[Pharmboy]

Indeed. My late brother-in-law was in the first wave on Omaha beach and would not talk about it until he neared the end of his life. He was a Lt. standing beside the Capt. in the front of the LST when the Capt. said to him: "Mike--get in the back so you can make sure all these guys get out when we get to the beach."

He did, and when the ramp came down, the German machine guns took out the first few rows of guys including the Capt. before much else happened. Mike would say to me: "They were just kids...just kids that we lost that day and throughout the war."

[fortes fortuna juvat]

I’ve never understood why our “Justice Department” never lifted a finger to stop them.
....................................................
Maybe the Justice Department was controlled by the enemy as it very well might be today!

In any case, thanks for the posting. You’re much more knowledgeable about this subject than I am, so I’ve managed to learn something today!

[colorado tanker]

We are damn lucky Churchill talked FDR into invading North Africa first. Our forces needed a dress rehearsal before taking on the main event in Normandy. Can you imagine Lloyd Fredendall in charge of American ground troops on D Day??

[military cop]

Used to required reading as a young officer.

I’m certain that requirement has changed to read some type of diversity garbage that has no value added to war fighting.

RLTW

[Tallguy]

https://youtu.be/27RlixtALS8

MG-42 machine gunner at Omaha Beach.

[Pharmboy]

I saw this a few days ago on Quora, written by Morgan Garcia that ties it all in:

During the fighting in Russia, German General Erich Hoepner was traveling through the Ukraine with his personal bodyguard and elements of the 352nd Wehrmacht Infantry Division when he came upon an SS Einsatzgroup rounding up Jewish Children whose parents had been rounded up the day before.

After a verbal confrontation with the SS Colonel in charge of the Einsatzgroup, he ordered his men to drawdown on the SS. The Einsatzgroup left the area temporarily and Hoepner ordered the children to walk east and stay away from German Military vehicles and away from the roads.

Hoepner was also not in Hitler's good graces for having ordered a retreat before Moscow later that year even (main reason he was dismissed) though units under his Command were only 20 miles from Moscow and had achieved the furthest penetration of all German units advancing on Moscow during Operation Typhoon. This news (with the Jewish Children) eventually reached Hitler and an excuse was found to dismiss Hoepner after his unsanctioned retreat from Moscow.

He was eventually arrested on trumped up charges and later on implicated in Hitler's assassination attempt and wound up dying in a concentration camp where he would eventually be hung with piano wire whilst being filmed for Hitler's amusement.

In another strange twist to this story it was the 352nd Wehrmacht Infantry Division that was on the defense opposing the Americans on Omaha Beach some 3 years later, being sent there to rest and refit, within the ranks of the 352nd was a machine gunner named Hienrich Severlot who was on the beach at Omaha during D-Day and is reputed to have expended more then 10,000 rounds from his MG42 and is credited and I may be lowballing this with the Deaths of 500 to 1000 American GIs! Severlot actually managed to escape the Beach and his bunker alive and went on to survive the war. If true Severlot was responsible for more then 20 to 30% of all casualties inflicted at Omaha Beach. Severlot is also known as and was given the nickname “ The Beast of Omaha'.

General Hoepner

[Captain Peter Blood]

Actually that is not true. He was given that command by Marshall who thought he was well qualified on paper. As soon as that was seen as a mistake he was relieved and sent home and given a state side command

[Spktyr]

Correction to your correction. The Soviets did not use diesel in any of their Lend-Lease tanks. The T-34 was also their first tank that ran on diesel; their prior tanks all ran on gasoline. Their BT-series cavalry tanks, the T-28 and all of their light tanks ran on gasoline. Pretty much only their mediums and heavies went diesel.

[Spktyr]

You mean the T-34, right?

Per contemporary and post war reports, the unending tsunamis of T-34s and Shermans were hugely demoralizing. On the occasions where their complex systems didn't immobilize them, even the most German armor would get swarmed under. The joke among the Germans on the Western Front was that a Panther or Tiger would easily destroy eight Shermans - but there was always a 9th Sherman that would take out the German tank. "Crunch all you want, we'll make more" was a concept that is hugely demoralizing on the receiving end - and despite the glurge about all Shermans being deathtraps, the stats show the Sherman was actually one of the safer tanks to be in during the war. So you'd have an Allied crew lose their track to hostile fire, go back to the depot, get another Sherman - and in some cases, the very next or same day, take their new Sherman back and kill what destroyed their last one.

That said, at the end of the war the most feared Allied machine on the Western Front was the M18 Hellcat, because it could shoot and scoot - and it could literally circle strafe German tanks faster than the tanks could turn their turrets. It was like trying to fight speedy ghosts that could appear from any bearing on the battlefield, rape the German armor, disappear before any response could be organized then appear from a completely different side to repeat the process over and over. Apparently those things caused German officers' nightmares, even worse than the tsunamis of Shermans.

The Eastern Front was a rather different matter. The Germans were too busy seeing things like this heading for them to be scared of one particular machine:

If you're in the German army at that point, seeing that mass of metal and troops heading for you? Yeah, you're screwed. In case anyone is wondering, those are IS-2 heavy tanks in the center, with the monstrous 122mm guns that nothing Germany had could keep out.

[kearnyirish2]

They weren’t b!tching because their rations tasted bad; they were doing it because they assumed they’d die in head-to-head battles.

Two times Germans must have been most demoralized in their war with us: When convoys started launching their own PLANES (never mind destroyer escorts), and when fighters stopped turning back while escorting bombers (due to the added drop tanks for fuel). Both were indicators that the Axis could never win (never mind the huge losses on the Eastern Front).

[GreyFriar]

You are correct on the Soviet light tanks and pre-T34 medium and heavy tanks; it was the T-34 and the KV and JS series I was referring to and didn’t make that distinction.

There was a version of the Sherman, M4A2, that ran on diesel. It was sent to the Soviets and the Marines used it in the Pacific. The engine was the General Motors 6046:
Type: 12 cylinder, 2-cycle, twin in-line diesel.

See this excellent website for nearly “everything about Sherman tanks”: http://www.theshermantank.com/sherman/the-motors-four-motors-made-it-into-production/

Cheers

[RinaseaofDs]

Tanks powered by gasoline. After Patton told them not to.

Patton was the absolute last resort. After the war, he saved thousands of German lives too. He got Bavaria back on its feet in weeks. He found Nazis that could put the water, power, and sanitation infrastructure back on line.

[Reily]

Also the geography had us & South Vietnam continuously “outflanked” unlike Korea. Routes for reinforcement & supply through Laos & Cambodia made it a “war of attrition”. A “war of attrition” is something you don’t want to do in Asia. They will always spend more “bodies” then the West. In situations like that the West’s only choice is move the war to a new level - nuclear. Something we were not willing to do for a lot of reasons.

[GDPolizei]

I remember my Uncle Bill. He was shot multiple times at close range by a German MG 34 during that battle. He had stomach and bladder issues for the rest of his life. He was a tough SOB.