Posted on 02/22/2020 7:52:14 AM PST by Raymond Pamintuan
I've been watching some NBA games on YouTube and decided to update my ranking of the greatest basketball players of all time. The variables are player statistics, the impact the player had on his team, the strength of the opposition, and the strength of the player’s team (such as whether he had someone to elevate his game).
I use a tier system, where arguments can be made for any particular ranking for players within the same tier.
In my opinion, Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time (the GOAT). There’s never been anyone who dominated both ends in a manner he did. He went to the finals six times and won every time – his dominance was so overwhelming, even when he was sick as a dog (such as during the match against the Jazz).
(Note: * Active player as of Jan 1, 2020)
TIER 1: MICHAEL JORDAN
TIER 2 (in no particular order): LARRY BIRD MAGIC JOHNSON KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR KOBE BRYANT WILT CHAMBERLAIN WILL RUSSELL LEBRON JAMES*
TIER 3 (in no particular order): JOHN STOCKTON CHARLES BARKLEY SHAQUILLE O’NEIL KARL MALONE SCOTTIE PIPPEN HAKEEM OLAJUWON TIM DUNCAN JERRY WEST ELGIN BAYLOR JULIUS ERVING OSCAR ROBERTSON BOB PETTIT
TIER 4 (in no particular order): ALLEN IVERSON REGGIE MILLER RUSSELL WESTBROOK* BOB COUSY PATRICK EWING STEPHEN CURRY* KEVIN DURANT* DWYANE WADE RICK BARRY KEVIN MCHALE JASON KIDD MOSES MALONE KEVIN GARNETT STEVE NASH DAVID ROBINSON ISIAH THOMAS GEORGE MIKAN JOHN HAVLICEK PAUL PIERCE DIRK NOWITZKI
Notes: 1. Larry Bird hasn't been given the respect he deserves. There is no doubt that he was one of the greatest basketball players of all time. He was definitely its greatest trash talker. The thing that upset his opponents the most was that he’ll tell them what he’s going to do and then he’ll do it, and it didn’t matter if he was double-teamed, he’ll sink the basket. If I were to choose between Bird and LeBron, I’ll choose Bird every time - he NEVER slacked off, he never choked during critical games, and he never left openings in his team’s defense, unlike LeBron.
2. I put James LeBron into Tier 2 due to his dominance and statistics. But he can NEVER compare to Michael Jordan, who is the GOAT because of LeBron's pattern of choking in critical games. He LOST six NBA championships, with teams designed around him. Think about that for a moment. The Chicago Bulls weren't built around MJ - he was its leader and greatest player, but he was just part of a whole.
3. I put my favorite player, Charles Barkley, in Tier 3 despite he probably should be in Tier 2. If he had a Dennis Rodman or John Stockton, he definitely would've made the transition.
4. John Stockton is the NBA’s all-time assist and steals leader. By a wide margin – over 700 more than MJ and over 1100 more than Olajuwon. Think about that. He had the worst luck to be stuck playing for the Utah Jazz his entire career with only Karl Malone as a top player. If Stockton played for the Lakers, Bulls, or Celtics, he would’ve moved up to Tier 2.
5. Kobe v. Shaq. While Shaq was an absolute monster and dominated the league, I honestly couldn't see putting him into Tier 2 because of his inconsistencies. I put Kobe into Tier 2 simply because of his drive for excellence - he never stopped trying to be better. One’s a shotgun, the other’s a .338.
The first player they changed the rules for was George Mikan. Then came Wilt. Now it is James Harden.
Give me a healthy Beaver (Theodore “Bill” Walton’s UCLA nickname) and my center is better than anyone’s.
“What are you smoking? What stats are you talking about? In terms of stats, Bird doesn’t come close to Jordan.”
Jordan was a scoring machine which is a given. Bird had better rebound and assist stats. Jordan better steal stats. Bird played 12 years, Jordan 15. Just sayin.
Kevin McHale, Danny Ainge, Manute Bol (seriously, just look at him, he’s a giant walking stick), Hakeem Olajouwan, Moses Malone, Spud Webb, Jo-Jo White, Isaiah Thomas.
you can do those things when you have parabolic eyes
The rule change you associate with Gretzky was really driven by the Edmonton Oilers as a team -- not Gretzky in particular. And I'd make the case that he had less of an impact on that rule change than two of his teammates: Paul Coffey and Jari Kurri. The NHL changed that rule because those two players (in particular) were dominant on the open ice in a 4-on-4 situation, and the Oilers would use that to their advantage by trying to get coincidental penalties to force 4-on-4 play. That's why the NHL changed the rule.
Interesting point of trivia regarding Edmonton: During their prime in the 1980s they would have SIX future Hall of Famers playing on their top power play unit. Grant Fuhr was in goal, Gretzky played center, and Coffey played on one point. Mark Messier -- who centered their second line -- moved up and played left wing on this unit. Glenn Anderson, who played right wing on that second line, moved up to play right wing on the power play. And first-line right winger Jari Kurri moved back and played the other point next to Coffey. That was an amazing team. Their 446 goals in the 1983-84 season (more than 5.5 goals per game) is a record that may never be matched. That 1983-84 team is probably a close #2 to the 1976-77 Montreal Canadiens as the greatest team in NHL history.
I found something that I wrote about Wilt Chamberlain. It was back in 2013 or earlier, so some stats from recent players may need updating:
People who think that Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time are probably some of the same people who, when asked to name the ten greatest baseball players of all time, will pick nine active players and Babe Ruth. Ask them who Lou Gehrig is, and they don’t have a clue.
Q: How many people guarded Michael Jordan at a time?
A: Usually one.
Q: How many people guarded Wilt Chamberlain at a time?
A: Often three. Sometimes four. During at least part of one game, all five. (Different rules regarding defenses allowed that during his era.)
In spite of being guarded by multiple defenders, Chamberlain dominated and changed the game.
One season he averaged over 50 points per game (50 points per game!) for the entire season. He also holds second and third place in this category. Elgin Baylor holds fourth place with 38.3 points per game. Chamberlain scored over 50 points in a game 45 times in one season. No one else has ever scored 50+ points in a game more than 10 times in a season.
He scored 60 points or more in a game 32 times during his career. Kobe Bryant is second with five.
In one game he scored 100 points. (That’s one hundred.)
He is the only player to average 30 points a game and 20 rebounds a game for an entire season. Oh, and he did that nine times.
He is the only NBA to ever achieve a double-triple-double (20+ rebounds, points, and assists in a game) or a quadruple double (40+ points and rebounds in a game). He had five quadruple doubles in his career.
He once hit 35 consecutive field goals.
He is the only non-guard to ever lead the NBA in assists.
He averaged 22.9 rebounds a game for his entire career. He once had 55 rebounds in a game. (The opposing center was Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics.)
Chamberlain scored 30+ points in 65 straight games. Michael Jordan’s longest streak is 11.
Rules were changed because of Chamberlain. The lane was widened from 12 to 16 feet to keep him farther away from the basket. A rule was instituted banning inbounding the ball over the backboard, to keep teammates from getting him the ball in that manner. Probably the most famous rule change prompted by Chamberlain was the rule outlawing the ability to dunk a free throw. (Yes, you read that correctly. You could get a running start until they changed the rule.)
One piece of Chamberlain trivia: Before he became a pro, he was a member of the Harlem Globetrotters.
Another piece of trivia: Before professional basketball, Chamberlain participated in track and field, in which he was a champion quarter-miler, half-miler, high jumper, triple jumper, and shot putter.
Chamberlain received an incredible amount of physical abuse from opponents, which was tolerated by the officials in order to even things up a bit. (Although obvious at the time, officials later admitted to this, too.) In spite of receiving more pounding than anyone else in basketball history, he didn’t respond in kind, even though he was believed by some to be the strongest man on the planet. Strong? He once broke an opponent’s toe on a dunk. He once dislocated an opponent’s shoulder on a clean block. He could bench press 550 pounds. (That’s 100 more than Arnold Schwarzenneger.)
Oh, and he never fouled out of a game. Ever.
The next time that someone says the Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time, don’t mention Wilt Chamberlain. Just ask them if they know who Lou Gehrig is.
I say there is that tier of rarified air where EXTREMELY few ever reach, in any given sport.
To me, these are the players whom a dunderhead who doesn’t watch or care about the game, like me, sees, and somehow INSTINCTIVELY knows is “the greatest”. They truly transcend the sport. Even ignoramuses can tell.
The Babe would’ve been one, Gretsky, Jordan (now I think Bird too), Johnny U for games/humans. Man O’War and Secretariat were like that for horses.
These just are extremely rare individuals, and the Greatest is a tiny platform.
The "ground rules" he set up at the start of the show were simple (and this was almost an exact quote): "I only want to hear about athletes after 1900. Nobody call up here and tell me that Spartacus was the greatest athlete in history."
I still crack up and think about that quote every time I see or hear Cory Booker's name. LMAO.
Actually played in the Garden in the Tech Tourney,,, What a thrill (even though we got stomped by a superior Brockton team).
Some one up thread gave a vote to a person named Will Russell, whoever he was. :)
Gretzky stands head and shoulders above all of them. Not only were his numbers out of this world when he retired, but they remain so to this day. His 2,857 career points are more than 900 ahead of the #2 guy on the list (Jaromir Jagr). And none of his 60+ NHL records have been broken since he retired 21 years ago.
Russell’s Celtics won 7 of 8 playoff series against Chamberlain’s Warriors, 76ers, and Lakers teams, and went 57–37 against them in the regular season and 29–20 in the playoffs.
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Russell’s teams won all four seventh games against Chamberlain’s.
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Simply, Chamberlain was statistically a better player, but Russell was greater at making his team a winner.
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Ask any player of any sport, any time.....it’s all about the championships.
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My final point, ask the players that had to play against them both.
They named Russell league MVP 5 times to Chamberlain’s 4.
Dr J
You won’t go wrong with the Dr either.
These games are fun. But boy, can they get ugly. I’m a horse-racing fan and believe me, wow, I just call it the “Secretariat and Man O’War wars”. Occasionally someone throws a wrench and mentions someone else which stops everything.
Ever do the “overrated” game? Funny how some get so riled up, even though it’s a RELATIVE term. God forbid I mention Ruffian the most overrated horse in history - the pounding you get. Never mind if I mention as an example of the MARTYR SYNDROME - she died/went bad so a terrific one suddenly becomes a superstar for the ages that even the normal GOATs have to fear.
I wonder if this could happen to Kobe Bryant? I know he was retired but only a few years. Although he was surely great while playing, will he suddenly be lofted to GOAT with a few more?
Bill Russell was great. There’s no denying that. But the Celtics won so many championships because they had a great team. There was a cast of very good players. Chamberlain’s teams often had to sacrifice getting good players so that they could afford to get him. Other teams could afford to guard him three on one, four on one, or five on one because he didn’t have great players around him. Other teams couldn’t afford to guard Bill Russell three on one or four on one because of players like John Havlicek, Sam Jones, K.C. Jones, Bailey Howell, Satch Sanders, Bob Cousy, Don Nelson, and others.
If Bill Russell had Chamberlain’s teammates, he wouldn’t have won nearly as many championships, if any.
Oscar Robertson would be on my short list.
Oh absolutely agree. How were they relative just to their time, AND did those stats hold up for decades? What about “hidden” stats - things not really archived although perfectly researchable? E.g., Man O’War undoubtedly has THE greatest time-record setting in history (and would be even better if not for the completely bogus Whisk Broom II time record), though often is not given as a “stat”.
But in many ways these TEAM sports are actually much harder to judge than individual. After all, it’s a TEAM. One can be brought down or bumped up because of one’s team, or we just can’t really see the fully story because of the curtain of the team.
So it’s a bit (tiny bit) easier to play this with horse-racing (though the jockey can make a difference) than basketball.
I treasure the first time I took my son to Edmonton to watch 99 and the Oilers play. A wonderful lady working for the Oilers, Shelia McKaskell, thought it so extraordinary someone would travel that far to see the team, we ended up in Pocklington’s old seats behind the bench (a few rows), received caps, etc and met Gretzky in the locker room area after the game. Went back in ‘88 for the first two games against Boston, and the next season for Gretzky’s first game back. I have a picture of #99, mullet and all, with my son hanging in my office. Showed a small copy of the photo to #99 and he started laughing at his hair.
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