Replies

>>OIFVeteran wrote: “Nice dodge.”

I didn’t dodge anything, so quit being such an accusatory jackass.

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>>OIFVeteran wrote: “What do you think he meant by this sentence. “The constitution requires an adoption in toto and for ever.”

He meant exactly what he said, which was, the ratification of the Constitution was “as is” — no amendments or alterations allowed.

AGAIN, that statement by Madison proves that state sovereignty and secession were part of the original Constitution, for these reasons:

1) New York, Virginia, and Rhode Island included provisions in their ratification documents for retaining sovereignty and the right to secede .

2) No alterations of the original Constitution were allowed during ratification.

3) Ratification by the three states demanding the right to secede, were accepted, without question.

I realize that is legalese, but think about it.

Mr. Kalamata

What James Madison said is that the constitution had to be adopted in toto and forever. Meaning there was no means to leave it once a state accepted it.

“The Constitution requires an adoption in toto, and for ever.”

It’s pretty clear to anyone with basic reading comprehension skills.

But let’s look at what was said at the South Carolina Ratification Convention by Charles Pickney, one of South Carolina’s representative to the constitutional convention. So he should know what the founders at the convention believed.

Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent,as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses.”

Charles Pickney South Carolina ratification convention1788 Pretty clear there, they are not separately and individually independent i.e they are not sovereign. Think I’ll take the word of two founding fathers that was actually at the constitutional convention over some dude named after an olive on the internet.

Kalamata to OIFVeteran post #583: "I didn’t dodge anything, so quit being such an accusatory jackass."

Says Free Republic's dodgiest accusatory jackass.

Kalamata on Madison's letter to Hamilton: "He meant exactly what he said, which was, the ratification of the Constitution was “as is” — no amendments or alterations allowed.
AGAIN, that statement by Madison proves that state sovereignty and secession were part of the original Constitution, for these reasons:...
...3) Ratification by the three states demanding the right to secede, were accepted, without question.
I realize that is legalese, but think about it."

I think we can say Kalamata's arguments here are the heart & core of any "constitutional argument" for secession -- they claim, in sum that since three states included signing statements concerning disunion, that makes disunion a part of the original compact.
Does it?

First of all, in law, signing statements are not recognized as legally binding, though they may be consulted for informational purposes.

Second, our Lost Causers all present us these three signing statements as if they authorized what happened in 1860 -- they did no such thing.

In fact, those signing statements simply confirmed what all of our Founders believed, expressed and acted on, most clearly spelled out by Madison himself, here.
In a nut-shell all Founders believed and acted on their idea that disunion was legitimate under two, but only two, conditions:

Unilaterally and unapproved, from clear necessity, with a parade of horribles as spelled out in detail in their 1776 Declaration of Independence.
"At pleasure" only by mutual consent, as in their new 1787 Constitution, abolishing the old Articles of Confederation.

But no Founder, no signing statement, no document of any kind from them ever supported what happened in 1860 -- unilateral, unapproved declaration of secession at pleasure.
Indeed, every Founding President was faced with threats of rebellion, insurrection, secession and/or treason, and all acted decisively to defeat them.
See my post #526 for a listing of such events.

No Founding President, no president period, ever said what Union General Scott advised Lincoln as one alternative regarding Fort Sumter, to let them, "depart in peace, wayward sisters".

Yes, citizen Jefferson is sometimes quoted regarding New England, but when President Jefferson faced his own secession crisis, he had the chief secessionist arrested & tried for treason.
And despite citizen Jefferson's words, President Madison in 1814 moved US Army troops off the frontier with Canada and into position near Massachusetts, in case of rebellion.

So our Founders were never, ever, fooled by Kalamata-like "legalese".