Posted on 07/17/2019 11:34:12 PM PDT by Windflier
Putting the "wimpy" 30 carbine to the test.
In this video, Paul Harrell takes a close look at the US M1 Carbine, that handy and fast-handling short rifle that was adopted specifically to replace the 1911 in its role as a smaller alternative to a full-size battle rifle.
After a short intro, he begins by talking about the power (or lack thereof) of the 30 carbine cartridge, which is a diminutive round about the length of a 357 magnum, but considerably smaller in diameter.
This brings to mind a conversation I had with my father nearly 40 years ago. We were talking about the 30 carbine and I asked about using it for hunting. Dad said it was underpowered for deer. I thought it odd that a round designated for people-killing was not powerful enough to reliably take whitetail deer, and I don’t think I’ll ever forget his reply:
"Son, people are easy to kill."
He expounded some on the toughness of deer and the psychiatric effect of being shot if you’re a human, and his point was made… especially as time went by and I grew up hunting and killing deer and learned how truly tough they can be.
Back to the video: After much discussion and point-making — all of which is worth listening to — Paul gets down to comparing actual effectiveness using his own personal yardstick: The meat target.
With comparable jacketed hollowpoint bullets, his carbine showed good effectiveness; with hardball (FMJ, or full metal jacket), it did not. So he decided to compare hardballs: 30 carbine vs 5.56 NATO.
The 5.56, which is essentially .22 caliber, produced much more damage with less penetration than the .30-cal carbine FMJ. This is of course due to the 5.56 bullet moving at a much faster speed than the 30 carbine slugs.
Next comes accuracy, and the 30 carbine did pretty well.
More facts follow: Weight of rifle, weight of ammo, and a bunch more stuff that gun people ought to be interested in.
So what’s the bottom line? Well, the M1 carbine is a nice little firearm which can get the job done with the right ammo… but if you’re shopping for a defensive rifle in a “military” caliber, you’re probably better off finding an AR in 5.56/223.
Enjoy the video.
I love carbines.
Paul Harrel and Hickock45 two of my favourites.
Closely followed by Kentucky Ballistics.
The old man was 82nd airborne said , it was under powered for anything but house to house or trenches the 45 thompson was better. Korea talking. Read Eugene Sledge’s book “With the Old Breed”. A little different take. Me, I ain’t trying to get through life with one. The Thompson is my go to minus the Gerand or a trench gun. WHen people are dying, maybe you, you get serious and activated.
I’ve played with the Ruger PC-4. The solid feel of the weapon was great, and I’m sure the .40 SW rounds had a little more zip with the 16” barrel. I liked how it just seemed a natural quick pointing rifle. I also thought a 60 round drum or 30 round stick would be nice.
I've got a High-Point 9mm carbine and one in .40 cal. I can't tell you how much fun it is to shoot those things, and they are dead accurate.
Back in the eighties, I had a Universal carbine, bought cheap at the gun show. Much fun emptying the 30-round mags I taped together. Ammo pricey, though, 8 bones/50 rounds. The SKS was cheaper...
I believe the 5.56 is designed to tumble on impact.
Thompson is way too heavy.
He said the Thompson was great but need cleaning all the time, the carbine was a beautiful weapon that needed constant cleaning and had terrible stopping power past 50 yards. The grease gun was durable, NEVER needed cleaning and had good stopping power. He said he nailed a ChiCom radio operator behind a thick wooden door at 75 yards. The operator was wounded but the radio did not survive.....
I own a Kel-Tec sub 2000 that takes Glock 19 mags. Fun to shoot.
I finally realized that a loaded M-14 weighed the same as a grease gun and was much more effective at all ranges, so I traded the grease gun to the SeaBees for beer.
Carried an M2 Carbine for a short while too - an excellent, controllable full-auto weapon but all I used it for was killing a crocodile we spotted in a river. As before, when your life depended on it, the M-14 was the only choice.
They are super fun to shoot, but the factory ammo is insanely expensive for what it does.
Agreed. Ammo is WAY to expensive for what it does.
I have a Kahr/Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine that I've tricked out with a Choate folding stock, replaced the upper handguard with a Picatinny rail, and mounted a SigSaur red dot. When I go to the range, it is the one weapon that I get asked most, "Can I try that?" People are amazed at the lightness, natural pointing ergonomics with the the pistol grip stock, very light recoil and lightning fast recovery time between shots. It is my weapon of choice for coyotes (the four legged variety) in the semi-dense woods around my house where I'll never get a shot over 100 yards.
But you are right - ammo is extremely expensive...but I would not (and do not) hesitate to consider it a more than adequate PDW with Cavitator Ammo - which is even more expensive than the 7.62 I need to feed my AR-10.
I would think the grease gun would have to be just for up los battle.
Depends on shooter to target distance.
The 5.56 mm round has to slow down a little before its legendary tumbling effect begins to occur when striking a solid target. Before that, the round is still stable from barrel rifling and still too hot (fast); it simply punches neat little holes in the enemy.
This lack of desired effect was being observed during close-in combat (100 yards or less) in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is reported to be the rationale being used by the Army and Marine Corps for looking at returning to larger calibers (6.8 and 7.62 mm) for the next generation infantry rifle. I’ve read (somewhere) that 6.8 mm mm is considered the minimum diameter for a bullet to check the boxes for accuracy and lethality over its entire range while minimizing ammo and weapon system weight.
At this point, the conversation goes sideways into specific weapons, intended roles, users and their training, tactics, mobility, present and future battlefields, etc., etc. So you end up with modern infantry that look like action figures from a SciFi movie and the terms “dumb” and “grunt” are now considered mutually exclusive.
If I remember correctly, the .30 Carbine round is basically a .32/20 WCF rimless.
Funny thing about my dad. We were watching some war movie and the solders were going house to house kicking in doors and running in. He laughed at that. Before his squad went into a house the first thing they would do is use frag grenades, tommy guns and grease guns and reduce the door to splinters. There wouldn’t be a door there anymore. Then the next thing was either smoke and/or frag grenades went in. Only after that did someone go in through a window with a 1911 and never through the door - only if there were no other choice of entrance.
Another life lesson your dad may have mentioned is when you hit someone, put three more into him to make sure he stays down. Saves problems later.
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