You can always refuel once in the air.....
Posted on 04/05/2018 6:44:01 AM PDT by vespa300
Sorry for the Vanity. Just had to ask. Had a weird flight a couple of days ago. DFW to L.A. American Airlines. We taxied out as usual, didn't seem that long, no more than usual...and then we turned and headed back to the gate.
Back in 1968 I was a new recruit in the Air Force; was on a flight from Lackland AFB to Chanute AFB in Illinois. We landed hard, full brakes and thrust reverser going, then silence. The Convair 880 stopped on the runway, quiet as a mouse. We had run out of fuel...
#13 We then went out over the Pacific and landed.
Did you get wet? : )
Well that is just a faulty gauge so fuel readings should just be ignored.
That is why I fly at least Business Class for such a long flight, and First Class if I can.
LA direct to Dubai: 15.5-hrs, long flight but up in the front the seats become a wonderfully comfortable fully-flat bed. When I started to motor down the seat to lay flat to take a nap, the stewardess came up, asked if I was ready to take a nap, I said yes, she said she would prepare the bed, left for a few minutes and came back with a rolled-up 3-4” thick mattress cut to fit the seat, plus form fitted sheets and a blanket.
In a flash she made the bed and tucked me in. Gawd that was great. AND that was in Business Class and I always wondered what they did for the travelers in First Class when they said they were ready for bed.
;-)
Digital entertainments system with over 200 movies and countless TV shows and such.
“...when I used to fly (single engine) whenever I got fuel, I filled the tanks up all the way.” [ml/nj, post 26]
Filling the tanks probably didn’t put you at much risk of exceeding max takeoff weight, depending on ambient temperature and altitude of your airfield.
Most light general-aviation aircraft are deliberately designed to be docile and may have safety margins of large size (though no aircraft manufacturer will admit this): they are typically resistant to being mis-controlled or forced beyond the safe regions of their performance envelope by an inexperienced or clumsy pilot.
But it is possible to exceed max weight on some aircraft, merely by filling all seats, stuffing in the heaviest baggage allowed, and filling the fuel tanks all the way.
Piper’s Cherokee 140 was one such machine. Initially intended for training, it was delivered with but two seats. A later version (Cherokee Cruiser 2+2) was equipped with four seats; it would exceed max gross weight if the fuel tanks were fully filled and four people (of standard weight as declared by FAA) were loaded.
To avoid over-loading, Piper installed tabs in the filler necks of Cruiser 2+2 fuel tanks, projecting down inside some three inches. The operator’s manual stated that if all seats were to be filled, the tanks could be filled only to the bottom of the tabs.
The sudden throttle up on approach sounds like a possible runway incursion, or a missed approach. (??)
So what are you complaining about wouldn’t you rather have to go back to the gate than run out up there You flew over the ocean to land into the wind must have been a santa ana kicking up
If they were idling for an hour may have indeed taken their fuel below safe minimums.
Commercial jets fly with no more gas than they need (required by law) generally as fuel adds weight needing more fuel to be burnedso it adds cost to the flight.
If a flight needs 1/2 a tank to fly the distance safely it will not be fueled to capacity.
“...because fuel weighs about 8 lbs./gallon...” [libertylover, post 38]
Gasoline = 6 lbs/gal
Jet fuel = 6.7 lbs/gal
Lube oil = 7 lbs/gal
Water = 8 lbs/gal
Standard planning factors about 40 years ago, when I took flying lessons. Not sure what’s used now.
The Father of a guy I worked with many years ago was killed when the two 747’s collided on the Runway in the Canary Islands.
He was at work when he got the call.
Thanks for the correction.
From my Air Force days in aircraft instrumentation I’d remembered 8 lbs/gal but apparently that’s for water. In those planes, and I believe in passenger jets, the gauges display lbs., actually thousands of lbs., because it’s a better measure of how much energy is in the fuel since the volume of the fuel changes with temperature.
I was just curious, in a small plane is fuel quantity displayed in pounds or in gallons?
The only time you have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.
On a flight from Pittsburgh to Dallas years ago our pilot headed back to the gate. He informed us that there was construction at the end of the runway and we were too heavy to take off in the room remaining, so they were going to remove some fuel.
In one of Ernest Gann’s books, he tells how he nearly crashed a B-17 into the Taj Mahal. It was supposed to be a short flight, but the plane’s tanks had been filled completely by mistake. Gann got off the runway, heading straight for the Taj Mahal, when he realized the plane was too heavy, and wasn’t going to climb fast enough to clear. He used full flaps at the right moment and got just enough altitude, then very nearly crashed on the other side, but didn’t.
“... I’d remembered 8 lbs/gal but apparently that’s for water. In those planes, and I believe in passenger jets, the gauges display lbs., ... in a small plane is fuel quantity displayed in pounds or in gallons?”
Thanks for your support in instrumentation.
I served on B-52 aircrews in the 1970s and early 1980s - assisted the copilot in mission planning, estimating the required fuel load, and calculating weight & balance. So my memory got reinforced.
Water was used in the B-52G during some takeoffs - sprayed into engine intakes to cool the air and increase density, which in turn boosted thrust. Delivered a perceptible kick when turned on. We used something like 1100 gallons of it in 90 seconds.
The B-52 had so many fuel tanks and so many gauges that crews were warned not to trust the gauges when the total fell below a certain figure. I forget the exact value, but it was pretty big. Maximum fuel allowed was over 300,000 pounds.
Fuel volume changing with temperature was a serious concern, just as you mentioned: engines sucked fuel in pounds per hour, not gallons. After ground refueling, the crew chief used measuring sticks to dip each tank. He (later she) would record the level in inches, record the ambient temperature, then refer to conversion charts to determine the pounds onboard.
Light aircraft not used for conveying passengers nor cargo were required to have a “means to determine fuel remaining” but the mechanical specifics were left up to the manufacturer. On the Aeronca 7AC, the tank was right in front of the pilot seat: a simple cork float with a metal rod sticking out of the top, marked with fuel-level gradations, projected up through the filler cap and the pilot could see the marks. Later, more “advanced” aircraft like the Cessna 150 had electrical gauges just like one’s average automobile: marked “E” and “F”, with tick marks in between. No numbers.
Haven’t flown any since the mid 1990s; not sure if any of this is current.
“In one of Ernest Gann’s books, he tells how he nearly crashed a B-17 into the Taj Mahal. It was supposed to be a short flight, but the plane’s tanks had been filled completely by mistake. ...”
Memory indicates he wrote about it in his autobiography, “A Hostage to Fortune.”
If my memory is correct, during WW2 Gann was a pilot for American Airlines, and flew all over, under contract to the US War Dept.
In the incident HartleyMBaldwin mentioned, Gann was pilot-in-command of a C-87, a cargo version of the B-24 bomber. Altogether a different aircraft than a B-17, more payload and range, less forgiving in its handling.
After landing, Gann & crew told the ground personnel to refuel the machine to the point where a certain number of gallons was on board. The ground crew apparently heard it as “add that certain number of gallons to what was already in the tanks.”
As the flight crew prepared to depart, they did not check the documentation in detail, to verify exactly how many additional gallons had been pumped onboard. They started the engines, taxied to the runway, and advanced the throttles for takeoff.
No one noticed the C-87’s sluggish performance until it was too late to abort the takeoff. AS HartleyMBaldwin mentioned, via judicious use of flaps Gann narrowly avoided hitting the Taj Mahal. Throughout, he fretted about going down in history as the pilot who destroyed it.
For anyone interested in the romance and adventure of commercial aviation during its development from the 1920s through the 1970s, E K Gann’s books can be an interesting, clear read.
I worked on F-4s and KC/EC-135s. One of the F-4 pilots came in pretty low on fuel one day, low enough to turn on the "Low Fuel" warning light, and thinking that when the gauge read zero he actually had about 500 lbs. remaining.
So at maintenance debriefing he asked another instrument guy (not I) how much he really had when the gauge read zero, and the answer is ZERO. He was stunned to realize that he almost let the aircraft run out of fuel for no good reason.
The calibration procedure was to pull the plane into the Fuel Shop and they would completely drain all tanks. Then we instrument guys used our equipment to calibrate the gauge(s) to...zero!
Thanks for filling this in. It has been many years since I read that book, but back then (late 70s) I read many of Gann’s books. Good stuff!
“...One of the F-4 pilots came in pretty low on fuel one day, low enough to turn on the “Low Fuel” warning light... he asked ... how much he really had when the gauge read zero, and the answer is ZERO. He was stunned to realize that he almost let the aircraft run out of fuel for no good reason...”
Yet another example of why fighter pilots are in constant need of adult supervision.
I had to work with many fighter pilots during the second half of my time on active duty. Many I met would not have been stunned to hear the news you colleague delivered. They are completely convinced their own ego outclasses everything else - including reality.
Immature, in addition. Terrible candidates for senior leadership. But that is all we get.
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