Thanks to Lurkina.n.Learnin for the ping! And heads up to ShadowAce for the Tech/Linux ping list!
Posted on 01/22/2018 6:51:07 PM PST by DUMBGRUNT
Is Intel really planning on making this shit architectural? Has anybody talked to them and told them they are f*cking insane?
They do literally insane things. They do things that do not make sense. That makes all your [i.e. Woodhouse’s] arguments questionable and suspicious. The patches do things that are not sane.
…So somebody isn’t telling the truth here. Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons. Sorry for having to point that out.
...Intel, for its part, offered the following statement: “We take the feedback of industry partners seriously. We are actively engaging with the Linux community, including Linus, as we seek to work together on solutions.” So at least they seem to still be on a first-name basis.
(Excerpt) Read more at techcrunch.com ...
What would you have him do, suck up to Intel? It sounds like you’re making it a pride thing. In the meantime whenever someone on one of the still majority but way less than 99% of PCs does as little as a Google search, they’ve leaned on “Linux.”
Check your own arrogance at the door. Ask not for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee.
Thanks - I appreciate your input on this thread.
Thanks to Lurkina.n.Learnin for the ping! And heads up to ShadowAce for the Tech/Linux ping list!
They’re fig leafing a hardware security bug in software. Obfuscation maneuvers drive down the risk of known ways to run exploits and that’s about it.
Looking at Apple’s description of it, I wonder what sent the world’s computer scientists to sleep with Rip Van Winkle.
p
bump
Yeah, I totally agree. Actually the entire thread is very entertaining if you like watching software bake. Woodhouse also commented on HackerNews that he wasn't offended at all. Later in the thread Woodhouse also rebutted some of objections by pointing out that Linus was mistaken about the context. Also he doesn't work for Intel any more, but obviously has a close relationship still.
But I have to say it's very disturbing to think that that a microcode change could also silently invalidate the retpoline approach. Now I'm having paranoid fantasies of secret NSA microcode updates that render systems open kimono and we can't even tell the difference!
There has also been criticism that implies this an emergent property of bashing the X86 architecture into the VM server era. However I recall similar bugs from the mainframe and minicomputer eras, e.g. amusing race conditions that could allow executing code to exceed the scope of a virtual environment. So even purpose built vm hardware from past generations had similar problems.
Unfortunately many people think that computing is very deterministic and newtonian. But in fact it's built on quantum mechanics and full of Gödelian gotchas. Thus I predict there will always be exploits and since our technological civilization is completely dependent on computing, it will continue to be worth the trouble of sniffing these things out, no matter how obscure they may seem.
I'd have to disagree with you here to a certain degree. We're still dealing with a deterministic environment. The big problem we're running into is that the entire environment has become so complex that it's become difficult to predict, especially when you are dealing with things like this that are extremely time-sensitive. From some of what I've read about the way that Intel (and others apparently) were doing their predictive execution threads, it sounds like they may have made some bad choices for expediency's sake that bought them a little speed, while they didn't recognize the potential there for it being subverted. Indeed, when the design decision was made, I don't think the attacks that have since been realized were even theoretical. (though perhaps they should have been)
For myself, as a longtime professional nerd who has really enjoyed watching our advances from the 8088 chips to the monsters we use now, I'm actually more astounded that we don't find more errors in these chips than we do given their current levels of complexity. If Microsoft could create software half well, MS-Windows wouldn't be the virus/trojan feeding frenzy that it has become.
Speaking of software quality, I think that history has shown the quality of the Linux kernel has proven itself fairly well over time. Granted, BSD has a better history (IMO), but compared to some others out there, it stacks up fairly well, so it would seem to be wise to consider Linus' point of view on this. Though he's not the most people-person type guy out there, he has been willing to own up to errors of his own in the past, and given the aforementioned quality of the product he shepherds, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt most of the time.
ok=- looks like the google fix is not consumer applied, but Developer applied- so we’re gonna have to wait and see if developers create this fix and save our computer performance-
Tech stocks are going up because everyone’s going to have to replace everything...
OTOH, for folks like me, that have been considering upgrading my desktop, that is now definitely postponed until new releases from AMD/Intel that take care of these issues.
Good point. I’m in the same spot - waiting... but in the long run everyone’s going to have to replace everything and we can take that to the bank.
What about “suck up to Intel” is even possibly personal to me. It would hurt all techdom. I’m sure Linus will explain “why” but I am very inclined to believe his take on it as correct about it being abysmal — just on the basis of his expertise. Intel is being all commercial about it. Why can’t a system be more flexible than this. Any application should be able to muffle the channels. Such as a web browser running a web page asking for it. And nothing but that application should be able to unmuffle them.
Please explain how this whole screed of yours isn’t personal to YOU, projecting on me. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is not a goose.
Pls name your OS of choice.
Are you certain that none of the developers owned stock in oil or coal companies?
Any warming deniers?
Any of them ever say anything mean to any females?
How can you be sure?
Bump for later
Maybe they petted a cat the wrong way.
It’s anecdotal, but Windows source is full of profanities.
Stop being such a dope.
My argument is not about YOU, nor about Linux.
And, I never argued against Linus’ take on the Intel fiasco.
I agree with Linus on how Intel f’d up on the “fix” not being adequate.
And, I never mentioned anything about “sucking” up to Intel or Linux or Linus or anything.
So, again, my argument is about the arrogance of Linus. I agree with him about the Intel fix not addressing the real problem and I also agree that it’s not adequate enough.
Got that?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Let me reiterate. My “grudge” is about Linus’ attitude and arrogance. Even if people think of him as being some kind of tech guru or a tech god, I still thing he’s arrogant and I’m turned off by that.
Now, go and play with your little Linux project and continue worshiping Linus all you want. I don’t care! Got it?!?!?!
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