And seeing it from 50 feet would all depend on lighting and what it had gathered onto its surface falling from 30,000 feet through a debri field.
Posted on 07/23/2014 4:21:00 AM PDT by logi_cal869
I was browsing video on Youtube of the MH17 crash scene and noticed something unusual.
The source of the video is Russian Television, but posted to Youtube on the 17th here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fjpB5gw3iM in line with the timeline of the crash.
Best views :16-:30 in.
I searched post-by-post here at FR back to the 17th and didn't see any Title asserting this had been observed.
Notice the Chaff falling from the sky...
I am aware of one account of a pair of Ukrainian Sukhoi fighters in the area, but I believe that was discarded as propaganda from the Russians, as one source was Alex Jones.
Another source I just found is here
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-v2-2014-7
Debate is good; looking forward to reading the comments.
This has been shown a thousand times to be nonsense. Also couple of times even here on FR.
This looks like toilet paper to me. We used to throw it out the back of C-130s during jump demos.
There are several different videos of what appears to be white streamers in the black smoke, but the consensus opinion is that it’s falling debris not chaff.
The Russian military claims a second aircraft was in the vicinity of flight MH17, Ukraine denies it, and so far the United States hasn’t produced any evidence to refute their claim.
So you don’t know what chaff is.
I’ve disbursed lots of it, and that isn’t chaff.
How do I know? Its visible. WWII chaff used against long wave search radars was large, modern chaff is designed to be used against microwave radars and is made of extremely small fiberglass dipoles. You might see it floating down from 10’ away (although it would be extremely disbursed at the ground) but you couldn’t possibly see it at 50’ or more.
When one explodes a passenger jet, you get a lot of debris, including a lot of insulation, tape, cloth, plastic, aluminum sheeting, carbon fiber, shoes, etc. That is what you are seeing.
Yep!
Plus all the little napkins, cups, seatback safety cards, airline mags, barf bags, skymall, etc.
I suspected as much; I’m very busy and never saw a comment about the falling debris.
That’s why I put this in chat. I’m an aviation buff, but I’ve never seen chaff of any type. Neither have I ever seen video of debris falling from mid-air disintegration of a commercial airliner.
The video of the plane getting hit shows it flying for at least a minute and a half before the video cuts off and it’s intact with the starboard engine on fire. It must have disintegrated at some point shortly thereafter at decent clip AGL, given the falling debris and breadth of the crash scene.
Interesting, nonetheless. Back to work...
You are wondering why debris is falling in the sky after a passenger airliner has been hit by a missile?
Would or could it have been any worse if those seat backs and tray tables not been upright and in locked positions?
You are assuming the aircraft broke up upon missile impact, directly fell out of the sky, and stoking sarcasm via ignorance without actually reading my comment directly preceding yours?
We had ship launched chaff that had long streamers like this but it was massed together in much greater quantities and wouldn’t have sepearted out to single streamers in order to present a metallic mass to fool the radar. In addition it was much more reflective (visible light) than what appears in the video even at a distance.
Ours looked more like a firework display. Been to long so don’t remember if it had other things mixed in, but wouldn’t be suprised.
Yes, ship deployed chaff is larger and visible, but that is due to the radar it is used against and the volume put out. Ships are large slow moving targets, and the location/targeting radars used against them have been (until recently) lower frequency, longer wave types. The longer the dipole, the longer the chaff.
Also, aircraft chaff is designed to provide false targets, while shipboard chaff is designed more to create a wall (cloud) obscuring everything behind and within it.
Yes I am assuming the plane was shot by a missile and broke up in the air and debris fell from the sky. What is your point with this “article”?
Begin quote.
Motors feed chaff from rolls of about 40 pounds through cutters carried on some aircraft to produce either bursts or a continuous stream. The continuous stream technique, called saturation chaff, may be used by aircraft to cover a large area. By 2005 or 2006, the Army also planned to use saturation chaff to mask vehicle and troop movements. Using a cutter, 360 pounds of chaff from nine 40-pound rolls can be deployed in 10 minutes. Depending on the method and the number of aircraft, such releases could disperse billions of fibers. The B-52 can carry about 750 seven-ounce boxes of chaff; each box contains up to 11 million fibers that can be expelled continuously or in bursts.
End quote.
A saturation continuous stream chaff deployment would be exactly what a smaller plane would drop if it was trying to mask a much larger commercial plane.
And seeing it from 50 feet would all depend on lighting and what it had gathered onto its surface falling from 30,000 feet through a debri field.
Then you know the temperature of the air at over 30,000 feet ?
No you don't.
You are looking at an uncut spool of metal-fiber thread.
What you are saying is that because you can see a spool of thread, you will still be able to see it after it is cut into lengths of 2-3 cm and disbursed.
Further, do you know what the volume of an aircraft chaff round is? Its about the same as a 10ga shot-shell, with a total capacity of 40-60 rounds per aircraft.
So, in summary, you are stating that you could take half a gallon of shiny thread cut into bits 2-3cm long, release it from 30,000 ft, and see it falling. You are wrong.
I've witnessed a lot of chaff being shot out of aircraft and beyond a small white puff next to the airplane, there is nothing visible.
And it is cut on the fly from an assembly mounted to a rail. There is a video that shows one complete rail mounted assembly available on the net. Lengths vary by the desired affect. In loose chaff mode, up to 2 inches long. And in continuous stream mode, as long as you want it.
You should not assume that all chaff is distributed by exploding canisters. In a rail mounted assembly it can be cut on the fly.
Continuous stream chaff is not a new development. Its at least 50 years old. It is also no longer being used by anyone that I know of, and certainly not in the giant cloud tactic you are describing.
Chaff in general has fallen out of favor, due to much more capable engagement systems that can easily distinguish Doppler and/or use leading edge targeting. Active electronic jamming and spoofing are where things are today.
Further, which aircraft are you suggesting would have been employing continuous chaff stream capability? The Su-25? Where would they put that on the aircraft, and to what end? What would they have been trying to hide with it?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.