Posted on 01/10/2014 8:57:30 PM PST by FlJoePa
I think they used the term “columnist blowhards”, though there probably isn’t a great deal of difference.
Out of curiosity, why do you think it is your position to claim Paterno never had any knowledge of anything?
...well, he once told me that it was ‘illegal’ for Joe to know anything about the 1999 investigation of Sandusky, so...
...digest that statement for a while, and I think you’ll have your answer...
The lead prosecutor (Fina) says, in his own words, that he found no evidence that Joe did anything wrong.
...no, actually in his own words he said he didn’t think Paterno was involved in a coverup, based on the fact he kicked McQueary’s story up the school chain of command...
...he did not, in his own words, say there was ‘no evidence Joe did anything wrong’...
...those are your ‘own words...’
So, you're telling us, by virtue of your consistency, I suppose, that when the NCAA vacated ALL of these basketball wins, they were "vindictive" in those cases too?
"The incidents resulting in the largest number of vacated and/or forfeited games are as follows:"
* Michigan 113 regular season/tourney wins (1992-1999)
* Ohio State: 82 regular season/tourney wins vacated (1992-'02)
* Fresno State: 49 regular season wins vacated (1999-2001)
* St. John's: 46 regular season wins vacated (2001-2004)
* New Mexico State: 40 regular season/tourney wins (1992-94; 97-98)
* Memphis: 38 regular season/tourney wins wins vacated (2008)
* Florida Intl Univ: 32 regular season wins vacated (2003-06)
* Louisiana–Lafayette: 31 wins vacated (2004-05)
* California: 28 regular season wins forfeited (1995-96 season)
* Georgia Southern: 27 regular season wins vacated (2008-2009)
* Minnesota: 24 regular season wins forfeited (1977)
* Florida State: 22 regular season/NIT wins vacated
* USC: 21 regular season wins vacated (2008)
* Arizona: 19 regular season wins vacated (2008)
* Purdue: 19 regular season/tourney (1996)
Source: List of vacated and forfeited games in college basketball
And the Alabama football program had a textbook scandal (2005-2007) -- plus a 1993 scandal -- whereby it had to vacate 29 wins from those four seasons. "Vindictive" there, too, eh?
More "vindictiveness" versus...
...North Carolina football (16 wins over 08-09)?
...USC football (14 wins over '04-05)?
...Ohio State football (12 wins in 2010)?
...Florida State football (12 wins in '06-07)?
...Arkansas State football (10 wins in '05-06)?
...Michigan State football (5 wins in '95)?
...SMU football (5 wins in '98)?
Source: Here Are Your All-Time Vacated Standings For Division I College Football
The penalties you cited had something to do with the program and its athletes. Give me one of the examples that you cited that involved a case like this one.
You (and some others) should REALLY watch the live link I posted just above. Franco spoke and a crisis management expert is speaking now. Ziegler and many others to follow.
Maybe you’ll learn something.
The NCAA went far beyond penalizing the program. They imposed an unprecedented, Soviet-style revisionist penalty on Penn State and Joe Paterno...
...what nonsense...they have imposed many harsh penalties on other programs, including five death penalties...your over the top verbiage is just silly...
The NCAA vacated 111 wins (from 1998 to 2011) from Paterno’s record, meaning he would no longer hold the title of major college football’s winningest coach.
...I would agree that the wins from 1998 to 2001 should be reinstated...PSU had no way of knowing in 1998 the scope of Sandusky’s activities...
This is pure vindictiveness.
...no, it isn’t...just business as usual...ask SMU...
The judge wrote: The “plaintiffs’ allegations that (the) defendants and the Freeh firm recklessly disregarded (the) plaintiffs’ procedural rights in imposing sanctions in a criminal matter unrelated to recruiting and athletic competition, accepted the flawed Freeh report knowing it was not the result of a reliable investigation, and falsely accused (the) plaintiffs of enabling and causing child sex abuse are sufficient to allege malice.”
...actually, the Judge ruled against voiding the consent degree, unless PSU itself is involved, the very same PSU that funded the Freeh report and agreed to the NCAA consent decree...in other words, it ain’t happening...what is avaliable to the Paterno’s is an amended suit, charging civil disparagement, and I believe in order to prevail, they will have to prove libelous behavior on the part of the NCAA...good luck with that...
On Twitter, another Paterno son, Scott Paterno, announced the judge’s decision.
...hardly the word of a disinterested spectator, don’t you agree...?
...look, I understand the Paterno’s frustration with this whole situation...that Joe’s reputation has been so entirely ruined is of course the most bitter pain they could imagine, and I would fight like hell if I were in their place...and I agree the whole truth has not been laid out, but an amended lawsuit won’t bring it out, either...
...in the end, people will likely agree to disagree about this entire affair...but, one thing is sure, it is a sad thing indeed, except for his most unrelenting detractors, for this to be Joe Paterno’s final epitaph...
Scott’s tweet is completely accurate. Let’s see what freeh, emmert, erickson, and a host of others have to say under oath.
Seems a good thing to me for people on either side of the issue. I want the truth, not the media’s version of the truth.
...please, you don’t need to shout to make your points...
I want the truth, not the media’s version of the truth.
...someone who really wanted the ‘truth’ wouldn’t be haranguing people as ‘ignorant’ and ‘uneducated’ when they question his own proclaimed version of that same ‘truth’...
When characters are attacked without proof or evidence, there is all the more reason for people to be put under oath. You can’t prove a negative.
When characters are attacked without proof or evidence, there is all the more reason for people to be put under oath
...then let the Paternos file a defamation suit, and try an win the day in court...but realize, this will not be easy...do you not suppose the NCAA has resources to bring to bear in refutation of such a charge?...
...also, if you think that such a suit is in any way going to overturn the football sanctions, think again...bowl bans and recruiting sanctions do not defame the Paternos as plaintiffs...and by the way, as a result of PSU’s continuing cooperation with the consent decree, those sanctions will likely have been lifted or expired by the time the Paternos go to court...
You can’t prove a negative.
...huh...???
The only way the Paterno/Lettermen/Faculty vs. ncaa suit causes the elimination of sanctions is if there is a quick settlement - which isn’t very likely.
Sue wants money (for charity), but she also wants the wins restored and I’m sure an apology.
The sanctions are being reduced via Mitchell’s recommendations anyway. I think it’s very likely that the bowl/B1G Championship ban will be lifted by summer.
That wikipedia list I provided doesn't include outright death penalties...like the 1985 Tulane 3-year basketball death penalty
College Basketball: The 25 sketchiest programs in hoops history
And that list also failed to include penalties based upon earlier scandals -- like...
...the 1952-1953 Kentucky basketball program being suspended...
Ranking the 10 Most Shocking Scandals in College Basketball History
...due to players participating in a points-shaving scandal...and Kentucky was only one of seven such schools in the early 1950s found participating in that...
See also: College Basketball: The 25 sketchiest programs in hoops history
...+ the Louisiana-Lafayette basketball program rec'd the death penalty in 1973:
1968 infractions In 1968, Southwestern Louisiana was placed on two years' probation and barred from postseason play during that time for recruiting violations and for student-athletes receiving financial assistance from an outside organization. 1973 death penalty In August 1973, Louisiana-Lafayette—then known as Southwestern Louisiana—became only the second school to receive the so-called "death penalty" from the NCAA. The basketball team was found guilty of over 120 violations. Most of them involved small cash payments to players, letting players borrow coaches' and boosters' cars, letting players use university credit cards to buy gas and buying clothes and other objects for players. However, the most severe violations involved massive academic fraud. In the most egregious case, an assistant coach altered a recruit's high school transcript and forged the principal's signature.
The penalties you cited had something to do with the program and its athletes. Give me one of the examples that you cited that involved a case like this one.
Source: Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns men's basketball
The 1961 St. Joseph's basketball team vacated wins...College Basketball: The 25 sketchiest programs in hoops history (points shaving)
...as did the 1971 Vanderbilt basketball team: College Basketball: The 25 sketchiest programs in hoops history
Cite me one case similar to this one where wins were vacated. There were no athletes involved, recruiting violations, etc,
We all know this was about making sure Paterno would not be the winningest coach in history.
Points shaving is done by the players and possibly coaches. What happened at Penn State had nothing to do with the players or their conduct on or off the field.
PSU is the only division 1 football program that has never had a major ncaa violation. Of any kind. Still to this day.
Well, that depends on how you define "program," right?
I mean Memphis State had a couple of issues with their 2008 basketball program:
"...Memphis once again had to vacate the entire season of their Final Four appearance in 2008. All-American Derrick Rose (pictured) had apparently cheated on his SATs and his brother had received improper benefits in the form of paid transportation by the university.
College Basketball: The 25 Sketchiest Programs in Hoops History
I mean the SATs is obviously "programatic" but 'twas the broader university paying transportation for the basketball player's brother. (It wasn't necessarily coach/player or direct program linked)
[By comparison, in Penn State's case, 'twas the broader university -- its A.D. and other admins likewise being the primary source prob...and JoePa made sure it didn't touch "the program" by staying "out of it" ... a brash sin of omission..."I wish I had done more"...]
Fine-line example #2:
Ohio State basketball: You know a $6,000 loan was made to a mom of a high school kid, right? At that point, the kid wasn't yet part of the program. He had already signed a letter of intent, so wasn't influential in getting him to sign. Yet Ohio State basketball coach Jim O'Brien was fired in 2004 for it...and Ohio State had wins vacated for a variety of issues over a long period of time, this being a key contributing factor)
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/565336-college-basketball-the-25-sketchiest-programs-in-hoops-history/page/6">College Basketball: The 25 Sketchiest Programs in Hoops History
Fine-line example #3:
1995-1996 CA Bears basketball...in which it had 28 wins forfeited:
"[Coach] Bozeman gave the parents of player Jelani Gardner over $30,000 in order to drive to see their son play. When Gardner's playing time began to slip, the parents turned Bozeman over to the NCAA."
College Basketball: The 25 Sketchiest Programs in Hoops History
Ya know, the kid was already at the school...likely none of this transportation $ ever dribbled down his way ...went for transportation only, right? It wasn't a player doin' something...didn't directly benefit the program or the athlete, right?
Yet look @ the multiple-year forfeited penalties handed to UC Berkeley.
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Give me one of the examples that you cited that involved a case like this one.
OK...if you and I were to sit down & pour over a couple dozen campuses which had multiple-year sanctions...some of them would likely be similar to one another. Point-shaving scandals, for example, have involved schools in about every decade from the '50s to the '80s!
Recruiting violations and falsifying tests or schoolwork would be other examples of this.
But minus doing that, and I'm merely speculating at this point...I would GUESS that of these, up to HALF of them involve unique situations -- IoW NOT since duplicated.
So, yeah, the Penn State "case like this one" is indeed unique; however, I'd say we might be able to readily come up with another double-digit "unique" cases occurring elsewhere.
(But, hey, at least you inspired a new tagline)
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No matter how you try to spin it...
...even those attempting to excuse Joe Paterno have to concede that the Penn State athletic budget includes...
...Its showers and what an eventual wide receivers coach and football recruiting coach saw and didn't bother to finish up with the authorities what he reported to some superiors...
...as well as its athletic director salary...
Or do you think Penn State was in error to shell out almost $60 million (plus more coming) with Sandusky's victims?
You see if a high school football coach became aware of students being sexually abused on campus without ever reading about arrests in the local paper...
...even if such crimes had NOTHING to do with the program...
...or wasn't involving a current high school coach or player (or past player)...
...If he learns about it, but doesn't EVER directly approach the authorities about it...
...especially wondering why authorities haven't approach ANYBODY at the school to further inquire...
...then, yes, there's a problem, Houston...
Hence, you have cases like the Steubenville rape of a girl where now "three other adults have been indicted for obstructing the investigation into the rape, while Steubenville's superintendent of schools has been charged with hindering the investigation into a rape that took place earlier in 2012." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case
Yes, most campus "program" penalties involve campuses DOING something problematic; and yes, Penn State has earned THE "notoriety" award for the longest period of time for DOING NOTHING while something quite criminal was goin' on!!!
(Please stop excusing or playing down sins of omission simply because they weren't sins of commission)
Agreed...covered this in just-posted #99
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