Posted on 08/27/2013 10:44:47 AM PDT by one guy in new jersey
While I fully agree that a "Natural Born Citizen", according to the framers, is "one who is born in the country, to parents who are both citizens of that country at the time of that birth", we are far beyond such trivialities now (and I do not mean that the US Constitution is trivial).
We are just simply too far beyond the US Constitution, beyond the rule of law, beyond civilized behavior, and beyond where any voice of reason can or will be heard.
We still have our pretend elections, but we can no more vote our way to national survival than the Jews could vote their way out of the European holocaust.
Not true. He may reach the same conclusion, but the atmosphere is different.
And you miss another key point, the situation is totally different with Obama. He is already President, so the question becomes how to BEST save the Republic from Obama. The answer is NOT the birther issue, for many many reasons, since that will never remove him from office and in fact, will probably strengthen him. Cruz is not President, so it's just an entirely different dynamic, keying on the intent of the Founders. And the intent was NOT NOT NOT to keep someone like Cruz from running.
Yep, definitely
What’s zotbait? Whatever that is, I’m pretty sure I’m not.
You must be a bureaucrat, because you interpreted "original intent" as only a bureuacrat could...by saying that the technical defintion was the original intent, and ignoring what was really the original intent....which was no divided loyalties. Some 240 years ago, that loyalty test was a helluva lot different than it is now. Seriously, what kind of bureaucrat are you???
“birther”
Clearly you’ve given the issue thought. /s
“Ted Cruz was born outside the country to a woman eligible to confer citizenship.”
Yes, this law is codified in the Immigration and Naturalization Act. The Immigration and Naturalization Act says Cruz is a citizen at birth because of his mother’s citizenship status and age at the time of his birth.
Congress is not authorized to codify any law or rule to establish a uniform rule on Natural born citizenship status, only immigration and naturalization. Consequently, Congressional authority to speak on citizenship status after a non-U.S born person becomes a U.S. Citizen is voided.
Furthermore, SCOTUS has opined natural born citizenship status “stands upon the footing of the native born.” Consequently, only a native born citizen could be a natural born citizen.
If you have to ask ......
Actually, the judge who decides that is 'gunner. Or is it Laz?
We have the "fact-oriented birthers" to thank for all of the factual questions regarding the location of Obama's birth, the identity of his real father, the identity of his real mother and the genuineness of any public records that relate to any of those issues. Remarkably, after five years of investigation, most of the "fact-oriented birthers" have gotten themselves so tangled up in doubts and suspicions that they will tell you that they now have "no idea" where Obama was born or the identity of either of his "real" parents. The shelf life of these birthers will expire at the end of Obama's term. It seems like a lot of time and money were wasted by those who got sucked into this black hole. These were the birthers that Obama didn't want to see go away and that may explain why he withheld some of his birth records for so long.
The second birther sub-group (those interested in the definition of the NBC clause) is more durable. I have a lot of respect for the work that many of them have done in uncovering a lot of interesting history. However, in the end, I think that they are trying to construct certain answers for questions that do not lend themselves to any certain or definite resolution. But, at least the questions they raise will have potential relevance to other candidates in the future.
Of the birthers I have known, I haven't known of one who I believe would have voted for Obama but for the birther issues. Every one of them that I have known is a person who I believe would have voted against Obama no matter where or to whom Obama was born.
The effect on a Cruz campaign should be similar. If he's lucky, there may emerge some anti-Cruz "fact-oriented birthers" on the left who claim that his real father was Fidel Castro or that he was actually born in Cuba or that he is really a space alien, etc., but I don't think anybody on the left could now make any money on such theories following the failure by the anti-Obama "fact-oriented birthers" to ever develop any coherent conclusions. That kind of stuff has been discredited for now.
I think anyone who votes against Cruz because of birther concerns will be someone who would never have voted for Cruz anyway.
Ted Cruz is one of a kind and I think he has a good chance of getting the nomination in 2016. And, if he gets the nomination, I think he has a good chance of being our next president.
Then what was your point?
James Madisn, the “Father of the Constitution,”
“It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States.”
Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856 From Gales and Seatons’ Annals of Congress; from Their Register of Debates; and from the Official Reported Debates, by John C. Rives By United States. Congress, Thomas Hart Benton
Washington, Jefferson and Madison became citizens of the First French Republic and the Marquis de Lafayette became a United States citizen by decree for his invaluable assistance to the revolution.
What the Gounders and Framers did not want was an Englisman who had spent some time in the colonies returning to the new nation and taking control of the nation’s government.
Judge Antonin Scalia on this subject (” jus soli” is Latin for “the right of soil” or birthright nationality.)
Justice Scalia: … “I mean, isn’t it clear that the natural born requirement in the Constitution was intended explicitly to exclude some Englishmen who had come here and spent some time here and then went back and raised their families in England?
They did not want that.
They wanted natural born Americans.
[Ms.]. Davis: Yes, by the same token…
Justice Scalia: That is jus soli, isn’t it?
[Ms.] Davis: By the same token, one could say that the provision would apply now to ensure that Congress can’t apply suspect classifications to keep certain individuals from aspiring to those offices.
Justice Scalia: Well, maybe.
I’m just referring to the meaning of natural born within the Constitution.
I don’t think you’re disagreeing.
It requires jus soli, doesn’t it?”
The point is the Levin explodes on anybody who mentions any question regarding the citizenship status of any politician.
And on Obama’s 2008 campaign website ‘Fight The Smears’, it stated:
‘The truth is, Barack Obama was born in the state of Hawaii in 1961, a native citizen of the United States of America.’
It never stated he was a ‘Natural Born Citizen’.
http://www.theobamafile.com/_images/FightTheSmearsNative.jpg
“Some 240 years ago, that loyalty test was a helluva lot different than it is now”
What law made ‘loyalty test’ change?
They have been very careful to never assert that he is a “natural born citizen”
They have cultivated an impression of eligibility without any supporting facts. It’s quite a snowjob.
>>This is your opinion, and as of today, it is not a legally defined term that has been codified into US law.<<
I don’t think anything has been codified into US law regarding NBC. The 14th amendment dealt with NBC. From this blog you can read a lot of history on the topic:
http://www.federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined/
The conclusion by the author there indicates place of birth is not relevant. But who the citizenship of the Father was. Of course that predates the 19th amendment. Now that women can vote, I think it’s reasonable to extend that same line of logic to the mother as well. The way I understand the NBC issue is that there is not one universal definition. Not by a long shot. The blog is an interesting read for anyone interested in the history of this topic.
He sure does. I’ve heard him countless times hang up on a caller who is in mid-sentence once he/she starts questioning Obama’s eligibility.
Yep. What got me is that website declared him a non-natural born Citizen in plain site and nobody in the media or campaign opposition caught it and made a issue out of it.
The Constitution *is* law. Original intent is the way to read the Constitution.
I like Cruz. I like his politics. I like his style. There is just no way he passes the intent of the Natural Born Citizen requirement.
The man has a Canadian birth certificate.
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