Posted on 05/24/2013 6:35:28 PM PDT by Kevmo
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1563 ... ity-of-gas
Cold fusion reactor independently verified, has 10,000 times the energy density of gas By Sebastian Anthony on May 21, 2013 at 12:43 pm 338 Comments
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Against all probability, a device that purports to use cold fusion to generate vast amounts of power has been verified by a panel of independent scientists. The research paper, which hasn’t yet undergone peer review, seems to confirm both the existence of cold fusion, and its potency: The cold fusion device being tested has roughly 10,000 times the energy density and 1,000 times the power density of gasoline. Even allowing for a massively conservative margin of error, the scientists say that the cold fusion device they tested is 10 times more powerful than gasoline — which is currently the best fuel readily available to mankind.
The device being tested, which is called the Energy Catalyzer (E-Cat for short), was created by Andrea Rossi. Rossi has been claiming for the past two years that he had finally cracked cold fusion, but much to the chagrin of the scientific community he hasn’t allowed anyone to independently analyze the device — until now. While it sounds like the scientists had a fairly free rein while testing the E-Cat, we should stress that they still don’t know exactly what’s going on inside the sealed steel cylinder reactor. Still, the seven scientists, all from good European universities, obviously felt confident enough with their findings to publish the research paper.
As for what’s happening inside the cold fusion reactor, Andrea Rossi and his colleague Sergio Focardi have previously said their device works by infusing hydrogen into nickel, transmuting the nickel into copper and releasing a large amount of heat. While Rossi hasn’t provided much in the way of details — he’s a very secretive man, it seems — we can infer some knowledge from NASA’s own research into cold fusion. Basically, hydrogen ions (single protons) are sucked into a nickel lattice (pictured right); the nickel’s electrons are forced into the hydrogen to produce neutrons; the nickel nuclei absorb these neutrons; the neutrons are stripped of their electrons to become protons; and thus the nickel goes up in atomic number from 28 to 29, becoming copper.
This process, like the “conventional” fusion of hydrogen atoms into helium, produces a lot of heat. (See: 500MW from half a gram of hydrogen: The hunt for fusion power heats up.) The main difference, though, is that the cold fusion process (also known as LENR, or low energy nuclear reaction) produces very slow moving neutrons which don’t create ionizing radiation or radioactive waste. Real fusion, on the other hand, produces fast neutrons that decimate everything in their path. In short, LENR is fairly safe — safe enough that NASA dreams of one day putting a cold fusion reactor in every home, car, and plane. Nickel and hydrogen, incidentally, are much cheaper and cleaner fuels than gasoline.
As far as we can tell, the main barrier to cold fusion — as with normal fusion — is producing more energy than you put in. In NASA’s tests, it takes a lot more energy to fuse the nickel and hydrogen than is produced by the reaction. Rossi, it would seem, has discovered a secret sauce that significantly reduces the amount of energy required to start the reaction. As for what the secret sauce is, no one knows — in the research paper, the independent scientists simply refer to it as “unknown additives.” All told, the E-Cat seems to have a power density of 4.4×105 W/kg, and an energy density of 5.1×107 Wh/kg.
If Rossi and Focardi’s cold fusion technology turns out to be real — if the E-Cat really has 10,000 times the energy density and 1,000 times the power density of gasoline — then the world will change, very, very quickly. Stay tuned; we’ll let you know when — or if — the E-Cat passes peer review.
Now read: Nuclear power is our only hope, or, the greatest environmentalist hypocrisy of all time
Research paper: arXiv:1305.3913 - “Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device”
We discovered those guys in early 2008 ~ their purpose was to go to various chat boards, get admitted, then when a political issue came up present the Obama party line, or argue with those who disagreed.
Bunch of them came to Free Republic, and got HOOKED! They still did the argue bit ~ after all, when you're getting paid a few bucks to do that, you do that. At the same time they are rather stick in the muds who would rather talk about a static political environment ~ and that carries over into their attitude toward emergent science and engineering. They view it as a competitor of things like paving roads, paying welfare, ObamaKKKare and various other Democrat and leftwingtard nostrums and notions.
Nancy Pelosi, growing up in a mobster's home ~ her dad, although mayor of baltimore was also a siciliano protectore ~ has it in spades. She simply does not agree with the idea that the future can and will be different. For her there's a pie of a certain size, and it never grows, and it never gets better.
Once I discovered the Italian government was beginning to prosecute the mobsters who'd foisted the windmill scam off on half the world, it became pretty obvious pretty quickly that WE didn't have to put up with that crowd, nor their friends, even the Obama truth squad that still show up on FR!
So, I push back.
Kevmo seems to be on the right side of the LENR quest/question! So are others. The critics here appear to have nebulous motives. Maybe they imagine the gasoline engine popped full blown from the mind of a single genius, carburetor and all ~ so any application that doesn't do that too just can't ever work. (clue, the gasoline engine took a very long time to fully develop and that work continues ~ I used to work in an engine factory myself).
Having started out as a math major I've always kept my eye on what the big boys are doing in that field in regards to providing some order to our understanding of the universe ~ their latest multi generational task is to figure out how many dimensions there are ~ beyond the 4 we knew of for so long ~ and where they are. LENR looks to be one of those 'concepts' backed up by thousands of experiments by tens of thousands of smart guys working at the atomic level where just maybe some of them have found some shadows in a 5th dimension ~ or, given some of the more anomalous results, something more than 'shadows' in a 6th even.
The critics unable to think beyond 4 dimensions are always going to dispute discoveries over on that side, or the other one, or maybe all the way out to 11 dimensions ~ George Gamow wrote a book explaining where this was going most of a century ago BTW. He, alas, lived in a time when we didn't have the mathematical tools to wrap some meat around the extra dimension concepts ~ so his musings and speculation weren't as well grounded as was his hard science, but he thought in terms of atomic particles and as the big boys are finding, some of those dimensions may be 'wrapped up' and available for use only in those small sizes where Gamow had his mind.
People who look into Gamow's theory on tunneling find out there's a lot more to this business than atom bombs and stars!
We will know it's real when the environmentalists and the left mobilize against it.
Hey, you’ve been here 15 years but frankly, it appears to me you’re off the deep end on cold fusion. You certainly have that faith-in-theory fervor of the AGW crowd going on.
Look, take my advice: essentially 99.9% of FReepers are going to disregard ‘cold fusion’ until there’s a working power plant hooked up to customers and drawing revenue. The fact that the technology is so promising yet not producing commercial power means it’s ‘too good to be true’.
All this time and it’s not producing commercial power to customers? Ergo it’s bogus. They could fly to Vanuatu or any one of thousands of Not-Part-Of-The-Big-Conspirators-Control locations and set one up and start drawing revenue, but Noooooo. And the notion that ‘Rossi et al aren’t interested in money’ is utter BS.
When a cold fusion power plant up and running and producing revenue then give me a ping.
It either works or it doesn’t. If it worked it’d receiving revenue from paying customers. But it’s not doing that.
Frankly, it all sounds like an OTC:BB outfit. <<< CLUE.
So, in your mind, it's OK for the skeptopaths to use this tactic (see any LENR thread for the same tripe posted multiple times in a thread, and across multiple threads), but Kevmo is to be faulted for it??
"Personally, I don’t care what kind of credentials your 7 superhero-scientists have, if it’s just them and 1000’s upon thousands of other scientists have nothing to do with what they’re doing (given it’s a for sure thing) that tells me something."
Science isn't done by consensus, no matter what the global warmer may say. It's about getting accurate and repeatable experimental results. Note the work EXPERIMENTAL....scientific proof is obtained by experiment, not theory, not voting, and not in any other way.
"I’m sorry, if this a flame-posting but dang dude, you’ve posted your superhero-scientist roster like 4 or 5 times like the list itself is going to make everything true.
See first point of this post. At least Kevmo's repetitive postings are actually informative, rather than shouting "it's a scam" again, and again, and again and.........
I didn’t see any endorsement of Rossi’s e-cat there. What was said is that more energy was produced than consumed by the e-cat. A high school physics teacher would question such a statement.
But there seems to be a real lack of curiosity or questions from these seven scientists about what was hidden from them and why, scientists who suffer from their own bias and prejudice as do the rest of us.
Would you feel better if I waved some degrees around? Or opened my checkbook like these Swedish industrialists?
Back to premise of the dem. With the verification of thses seven scientists are other scientists going to accept their observations without questions? Or will they pick apart the statements made and ask the same obvious quesstions?
Hey, that's several trillion dollars ago, and the news is the same every year ~ wait 30 years! and that's for break even.
As i know if you don't, there are folks who read the LENR threads and never comment.
A clue for ya' ~ read. Someday when you have a meaningful comment, write.
BTW, math is much more than addition ~
That would be me, admin. And yes, I consider the continuous posting of the same drivel multiple times in a single thread, and across multiple threads to be abuse, most of it done by the same individual.
It's not about isolated posts, it's about a pattern of behavior across the entire LENR topic. The tactic is to censor such threads by spamming dozens of one-line negative comments and drowning out rational discussion (i.e. to increase the noise level until the signal gets lost). Yeah, these folks "do" occasionally throw in a legitimate discussion point (or what appears to be such until one sees the pattern across threads), but most are not.
This tactic is one I have not seen used anyplace other than in anti-LENR efforts, but is typical in such efforts. The crowning glory of such efforts is to have the thread pulled completely, but chasing off the curious but un-informed is also good.
A bit of civility would go a long way here.
This wasn't an experiment. It was black box measurements on a contraption set up by a con-artist in the con artist's facitities.
We'll never know. This "report" will never be published in a journal. The co-authors have no intention of presenting it at a cold fusion friendly conference coming up, either.
The whole purpose is to get the report plastered all over the Internet, mostly blogs, so Rossi can con people into buying distribution rights to a product that will never exist.
Agreed. How many serious scientists do papers on demonstrations not set up by them or done on premises they don't control?
Under those conditions, an engineer with a breakthrough which cannot be protected by patent would appear as bizarre as... Rossi appears.
Rossi appears bizarre because of his fraudulent past, including claim to a fake degree, and multiple arrests for fraud and other criminal activity like smuggling. His claim that he doesn't actually know the details of how his contraption works is also bizarre, and would prevent him from getting a patent.
So, having looked at the background of these scientists (2 of whom were members of Skeptics Societies), you think these guys aren’t serious? They can’t measure Energy In and Energy Out?
Normal people can see those are serious scientists, people like The Swedish Industrial Group ELFORSK.
Maybe ... it’s a ripple in the big electron!
I didn’t see any endorsement of Rossi’s e-cat there. What was said is that more energy was produced than consumed by the e-cat. A high school physics teacher would question such a statement.
***Lots of things have more energy in than out. Like a gasoline motor. A high school physics teacher would know that, and would know that this isn’t the significance of what’s being claimed. The significance is that the energy density is 10,000 higher than gasoline.
But there seems to be a real lack of curiosity or questions from these seven scientists about what was hidden from them and why,
***There is tremendous curiosity. And what was hidden was the industrial secret so that it remains protected.
scientists who suffer from their own bias and prejudice as do the rest of us.
***2 of those scientists were on SKeptics Societies and were very doubtful before they began testing Rossi’s contraption. All 7 of them know how to measure Energy In and Energy Out.
Would you feel better if I waved some degrees around? Or opened my checkbook like these Swedish industrialists?
***I would ‘feel better’ if you demonstrated some simple integrity and basic scientific capability such as knowing that 7 scientists can measure Energy In and Energy Out, like a resistor.
Back to premise of the dem. With the verification of thses seven scientists are other scientists going to accept their observations without questions? Or will they pick apart the statements made and ask the same obvious quesstions?
***Time will tell. But when industrial groups start opening their checkbooks, scientists are just as human as the next guy and start taking it seriously because there’s money on the table.
Returning to the tritium notion, I have studied the P&F process and subsequenbt processes which indicate LENR. I am of a mind that something like the Casimir effect is pulling energy from the ‘zero point field’ via deutirium deposited into the crystaline matrix and then through a Casimir effect causing a tension on the crystaline metal structure, building up energy on the structure which is dumped as heat into the environment.
Just thought I would try and get the thread back onto the reason for it being posted, rather than the diversions which seem to plague this topic.
Hey, you’ve been here 15 years but frankly, it appears to me you’re off the deep end on cold fusion.
***If LENR is a scaleable technology it will be the most impactful development in history, similar to gunpowder.
You certainly have that faith-in-theory fervor of the AGW crowd going on.
***There are more than a dozen theories of LENR, none of which stand out as obvious. Similarly, there are multiple theories of Gravity and none of them stand out as obvious. We know gravity exists, we can describe its behavior (the Law of Gravity) but there is no verified theory of gravity. So, no... I do not have faith in any theory. I have faith in FACTS and observations. The FACT that this Anomalous Heat Effect has been replicated more than 14,700 times. Like Feynman said, experiment trumps theory.
Look, take my advice: essentially 99.9% of FReepers are going to disregard ‘cold fusion’ until there’s a working power plant hooked up to customers and drawing revenue.
***How is that advice? It’s just a statement from Justa.
The fact that the technology is so promising yet not producing commercial power means it’s ‘too good to be true’.
***argument by cliche
All this time and it’s not producing commercial power to customers? Ergo it’s bogus.
***Same thing was said of the Wright brothers. Was their technology bogus? It was 15 years between the invention of the transistor and commercially available units. Was the transistor bogus during those 15 years? What a ridiculous argument. There’s a huge difference between a prototype and commercially available production units. This LENR stuff is extremely difficult. That’s why it hasn’t gone into production yet.
They could fly to Vanuatu or any one of thousands of Not-Part-Of-The-Big-Conspirators-Control locations and set one up and start drawing revenue, but Noooooo.
***basically you’re saying the same thing in a different way.
And the notion that ‘Rossi et al aren’t interested in money’ is utter BS.
***I don’t know where you get this idea that someone has such a notion. Rossi is doing this for the money. Duhh.
When a cold fusion power plant up and running and producing revenue then give me a ping.
***Why would I? When a hot fusion power plant is doing the same thing, you and I will have been dead for more than a century. But that hasn’t stopped $hundreds of billions being poured into the technology, while cold fusion experimenters go begging, and would love to get even 2% of that for experiments.
It either works or it doesn’t. If it worked it’d receiving revenue from paying customers. But it’s not doing that.
***saying the same thing in a different way, and as usual raising the bar for cold fusion while lowering it for hot fusion.
Frankly, it all sounds like an OTC:BB outfit. <<< CLUE.
***your arguments from cliche are inane enough, but now you’re just getting cryptic.
I tend toward the Casimir effect as source for pulling energy from the zero point field because the LENR can be generated via sonic means, also, in these experiments.
Serious about fraud. And ex members of skeptics societies -- that's telling now that they are associated with a con-artist.
They can’t measure Energy In and Energy Out?
Which raises the question of why you need 7 academics to do the job, unless you're a con man trying to impress suckers. And they're still measuring a contraption set up by a con-artist in the con-artist's facilities.
If cold fusion articles are posted in the Smoky Backroom, will they get pulled less frequently? FR has had some huge flamewars in the past. I didn’t see those threads get pulled.
You key up on the playful denigration terms such as “luddite” and “seagull”, but when these guys call a freeper “stupid” and a “liar”, that’s not considered personal attacks?
I agree, critiques against Rossi are not a personal attack. It baffles me why a thread would get pulled because someone gets their panties in a wad about insults towards Rossi. He should be fair game until he signs up as a Freeper.
It was the admin moderator who wrote the article that started this “don’t post to me” stuff, and the admin mod said this:
Final note: Trolls, troublemakers, disruptors, forum pests, malcontents, RINOs, liberals, stalkers, et al, would continue posting to (harassing) someone after being asked to stop. Conservative FReepers would not.
“Do not post to me” Free Republic ^ | 8/28/07 | Admin Moderator Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:47:37 PM by Admin Moderator http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1888013/posts
So now you pull threads because of that stuff? In the article you said we should develop a thick skin. You did not say you’d be pulling threads where that approach was used. In the article you pulled I disengaged direct flamebait material more than a dozen times, demonstrating thick skin because of the guidelines you posted.
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