The principle of autonomy

[nomad]

I`m taking a bioethics class and my professor is a supporter of O'Barky Care. I debated with him, and the entire class, over their suppport of it and that it is an attack on autonomy given the concept of autonomy is based on the idea "a person can not be made a means to an end".(text book)I intend to renew the battle next class as these leftists love to claim autonomy as their Kantian "perfect duty" when it suits their particular issues but they claim it, at best, as a "imperfect duty" when it serves their subjective desires.

Any one out there familiar with the concepts and do you have any suggestions? I mean its either rank hipocrisy or some interestiing paradox that it can at once exist for one but not for another especially when those claiming it to serve their ends, also posit the subjective theories that inevitably result in its destruction. Animal Farm anyone? I`m not Boxer, and will not tolerate Napolean! "TO ARMS, let the battle be joined!"

[nomad]

Its a matter of pride to be in the lion`s den and fend off about 15 lefties AND a college proffesor single handedly!

[nomad]

Lots of fun to turn liberals apoplectic.

[ClearCase_guy]

some interestiing paradox that it can at once exist for one but not for another

Cognitive Dissonance: Holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. Leftism is built on this illogical stance as a foundational belief.

[saywhatagain]

Can not help in the specifics and context of your teachings and textbook, but from my experiences many decades ago same same, always stay calm, listen to what they are saying, and "use their own words" their examples and "own logic" to destroy their argument.

You are being judged not by your words, but by your behavior.

Do not think in terms of "winning" an argument. No one ever "wins." You will never change the mind of anyone there in that moment. Takes a mature person to admit their thoughts and ideas are wrong. YET! Later will you learn how effective you are. Some are listening and need time to work it through with the rest of their perceptions of what is right and what is wrong

[Teflonic]

Not sure I can help you directly but professors are about the only ones that are for obamacare, practicing doctors will retire in droves if implemented.

I do have an excellent analogy against euthanasia though. The gist of it is:
Imagine your grandparents being too proud to ask the family for help as they start having serious aging issues. In our current system they would eventually have to break down and reveal their troubles to their children but with euthanasia implemented they may opt to end their lives out of the goodness in their hearts rather than burden their family. No matter that the family may have already anticipated assiting them and be well able to accommodate it, just the evil option being available will bring about such a tragedy for some families.

This is an essential post with great resource links for the conservative student:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2898746/posts

[nomad]

Well they are definitely act utilitarians, moral relativists too, but how can they be both utilitarian, a teleological philosophy, and also deontologists in regards to autonomy? Their views even fail the Kantian universalizability test, “Act only on that maxim that you can will to be a universal law”, in that if all took their example to heart, in regards to autonomy, we would all be inclined to violate it at our whims and thus render it operationally nonsequitur..

[nomad]

Oh, that's absolutely required. He even showed a tear jerker video of "poor people" in need of O'Barky Care, expecting it to be taken as an objective lesson and not purely subjective one, even after I insisted countless times to keep it objective(theory based). Leftists are so intellectually disingenuous! Half tempted to bring that up next time,really pi$$ him off.

[kabumpo]

If you’re in school, spelling helps your case. It’s hypocrisy with 2 Ys.

[saywhatagain]

"showed tear jerker video of "poor people" in need of O'Barky Care,"

Yup, in 1976 they were showing tear jerker videos of poor, crack addicted, pregnant black women in need of abortion. These were shown by the most liberal (communist) vile racist professors, in that all their videos and examples was about the "black community and how we need to help the "black community" from expanding out of control.

Somethings never change.

Of course you must keep your arguments in the context of courseware. Easy to veer away and use outside logic. Also, please stay away from ad hominem attacks and words. It may feel wonderful inside, but it distracts from your argument and makes those who might be listening to turn off.

To justify "O'Barky Care" BECAUSE of the needs of poor people is as you say . . . intellectually disingenuous. And LAZY. Much better solutions to assist the poor and needy than that piece of crap.

Undoubtedly, under the "The principle of autonomy" in healthcare, they make an argument that one can not be autonomous if not given a choice as in the case of poor or needy.

Obviously they use that argument to argue for "Physician assisted suicide."

But then . . . how do they justify forcing a religion to practice that which is against their beliefs. i.e. Catholics in birth control/abortion.

Arguments can go on forever and forever. That is why conservatives on issues such as these look away from government to solve and empower the people to make decisions best for them and their choices.

[Intolerant in NJ]

...concept of autonomy is based on the idea "a person can not be made a means to an end"...you might point out that the entire need for the "mandate" (now declard a tax by the Supremes) was to force younger individuals, who ordinarily won't voluntarily purchase health insurance because they don't believe they need it, to in fact buy coverage so their premium payments can be used to pay for the more costly care given to those who are older, and who don't pay enough into the system to cover their own care. Talk about using human beings as a menas to an end - and it might wake up some of your classmates to just how dishonest the entire Obamacare scam is......

[LadyDoc]

the idea of autonomy assumes we are free and independent and in charge of our life, without any duty or obligations to anyone and without being dependent on anyone.

Professor Mary Anne Glendon once tartly remarked about this extreme view that it actually described the life of few men, and even fewer women.

We live in an interconnected world, and the sick is especially not in charge of his life. When I first took care of patients back in the early 1960’s, we were told that patients might love us or hate us or yell at us or bribe us, but it wasn’t “US”: they were afraid and used such things to cope with their illness.

The sick are especially vunerable to agree with what those around them want to do.

That is why you need a good doctor and a health care proxy who knows enough when to say YES we want that done, or NO the person is dying don’t prolong the agony.