Posted on 04/06/2012 6:23:00 AM PDT by sitetest
I don't engage in vanities very often, but I thought this one might be interesting to some folks, and I wouldn't mind a little (courteous) input.
Some of you may remember that we homeschooled our two sons through eighth grade and then sent 'em off to a local Catholic high school. The older guy, who is registered here as swotsonofsitetest, graduates in June and will be off to college in the fall.
We're now coming to the end of the college application and admission process and it's decision time. I'm interested in folks opinions about that decision.
After eight years of homeschooling, he did very well in high school, received very high scores on the SAT and his SAT subject tests, may or may not be valedictorian this year, and has pretty good (although somewhat run-of-the-mill and not-terribly-exciting, it turns out) extracurriculars. Thus, he applied to some top schools and met with some success.
He applied to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Johns Hopkins, Washington Univ in St. Louis, Univ of Virginia, Notre Dame and the Univ of Maryland, College Park. He plans to double-major in civil engineering (where the school has civil engineering, otherwise mechanical engineering) and classics.
He is quite the classicist, more of a language guy than a math and science guy, but that's only a relative measure. He's very, very good at math and science, just off the charts in language stuff.
After months of application process, filling out FAFSAs, Common Apps, IDOCs, etc., it comes down to: Waitlisted at Washington Univ in St. Louis; rejected outright at Yale and Princeton; accepted to UVA; Notre Dame; Univ of MD; Hopkins and Harvard.
Although UVA is a nice school, it doesn't quite light his fire. We don't expect much by way of financial aid (we live next door in Maryland, and UVA is kinda tight with aid to out-of-state residents). He visited Notre Dame and prefers not to go to a pseudo-Catholic school.
So, it's down to Maryland, Hopkins and Harvard.
Hopkins had been his favorite through the process. Great engineering school, great classics program, great campus feel for him (lots of nerdy kids having a blast studying their hearts out). He met one of the classics professors there and they quickly hit it off.
Maryland had been his "safe school." I hesitate to call it that, because Maryland is not the school it was when I was young (party school that took most folks with a pulse and respiration). Today, the median CR + M SAT of incoming freshmen is over 1300, much higher for their Honors College and school of engineering (to both of which he was accepted). So, I will say it is his safe school in a whisper.
Maryland has a great school of engineering. Their classics program is pretty good, but nowhere near what it is at Hopkins and Harvard.
Harvard, too, was a bit of a dark horse, for reasons with which many posters here would be familiar. But they have a decent engineering school and one of the top classics programs in the country. Plus, it's Harvard. As well, the folks just exude a happy, pleasant, non-bureaucratic competence. And have made him feel welcome and wanted. Which is something Hopkins has not done. However, they only have mechanical engineering, not civil.
Anyway, the money aspect is worth mentioning here. Hopkins is coming in with a decent financial aid package, but it leaves $22K to me to pay per year. Ouch. The loans that my son would need to take out are very modest - a total of $5K over four years. This all includes a modest amount of work study during the school year for my son.
Harvard came up with a substantially-better package - $16K per year to me. Which is nearly affordable, LOL. It includes no loans (unless I want to borrow what I'd owe them) and modest work study.
Maryland is offering a full merit scholarship including full tuition, room and board, books, and a small stipend for educational endeavors such as research, travel, conferences, etc.
So, what do you think? His original first choice with great engineering and classics for $22K per year with modest loans? Harvard (can't beat the brand name with a stick) with good, but not great engineering, phenomenal classics for $16K per year with no loans? Or Maryland, with great engineering, decent classics and, did I mention, absolutely FREE?
“Sounds like Hopkins is really out of the picture.”
Probably. Disappointing. It's the best combination of engineering and classics, and he really loves the campus, the vibe, etc. But nearly a hundred grand is out of the question when free is available, and he can do Harvard for 2/3 the price.
“So between Maryland and Harvard, it’s a no brainer. Look, Maryland might be a good school and all, but it’s not Harvard. At Harvard, his classmates will be future Senators, CEOs, and Supreme Court Justices. At Maryland, his classmates will be future middle managers.”
That's one side, and it carries a lot of water. Swimming pools-full.
“It’s an absolute no brainer. Harvard. Yes, it costs some money, but this is why you saved.”
To maximize financial aid packages, I intentionally put all my savings over the years into retirement accounts, which are not counted when looking at college financed. Which has had the desired effect of maximizing financial aid.
But which means that I have to fund this all from current income, loans, or dipping into retirement accounts.
However, if I gotta borrow a chunk of $65K for my kid to graduate from Harvard - if that's what he wants - then that's what I'll do.
There are some nice advantages popping up at Maryland though. He's been offered a scholarship that is offered at about two dozen leading schools - including Harvard - and the goal of the scholarship's sponsor is to encourage networking between these “best and brightest of the best and brightest” around the country. He'd be introduced and given opportunities to network with the very most top students from places like CalTech, Georgia Tech, Penn... and... HARVARD.
So, at least for us, it's not quite a no-brainer.
sitetest
Cheers!
I’d pick Harvard, and do not borrow money even if somebody has to moonlight.
I graduated with an engineering degree in 1980 from a very good school. My son graduated from there also. Had I to do it over again, I’d have taken a few useful courses and gone into business - any business - for myself.
This country (our government) is against educated people. And, these educated (good educations) people are subject to the government whimsy of taxes and a W-2.
Had I to do it over again, I’d do like my brother-in-law. A good ole boy jackass millionaire plumbing company owner - now retired and huntin’ and fishin’.
CASH - at least until they don’t print it anymore- is KING. Government can’t take what they can’t prove you have.
At Hopkins, everyone must live on campus freshman year - no savings there. Otherwise, it's only about a 40-minute drive from my house.
Harvard isn't quite as toxic as we conservatives sometimes imagine. My son's high school sends kids to Harvard from time to time, and they seem to come out as messed up, or not-messed up, as they went in.
In many ways, it's enemy territory, behind the lines. But they're very upfront about it, and that's far better than a pseudo-Catholic school like Notre Dame. My son's a warrior. He relishes smiting the heathens. He might have a grand time at Harvard.
sitetest
No classics program. That’s a deal-breaker.
Yes. GA Tech is an excellent idea.
It sounds like you and your family have done a great job so far. Having family close can be a real blessing during those college years. I have a bud who has a crystal ball, but I have my doubts about how well it works.
Best advice I can add is prayer and more prayer. God has a plan, I am certain. Good luck and God Bless.
Interesting about the scholarship, but it’s a club at these schools. You’re either part of the club or you’re not (not just metaphorically, but literally, too; it’s a club: see the Harvard Club of NYC, for instance). And if you went to Maryland, you’re not in the club.
For what it’s worth, I went to a state school for undergrad and an elite private university for graduate school.
If he's as smart as he appears to be, he'll go through there and emerge unscathed.
My children--I am very proud to say--are ALL conservative Republicans--and so are their mates. My--highly intelligent--son recently said: "I wouldn't even date someone who is not conservative."
NC State, too. Outstanding civil engineering program.
Wow, great post. Lots of good stuff in both directions. We're all thinking a lot of the same stuff here.
Maryland is now a pretty selective school to get into. And the Honors College, which comprises roughly a quarter of incoming freshmen, is even tougher - average CR + M SAT (out of 1600) - 1410. And the engineering school is a separate admission and tough to get into.
If he goes to Maryland (or Hopkins), he'll stay a fifth year, even if I have to pay for it, and cop his engineering masters. If he continues beyond that, I'd probably advise for an MBA, to assist in the climb up to senior management. He'd like the corner office, some day.
If he makes very great gobs of money someday, he'll go back and get a Ph.D. in classics. ;-)
Wooing - You're right. And Hopkins ain't doin’ it. Maryland and Harvard are turning on the afterburners. The thing is, Harvard's been great with very polite folks on the phone, personal phone calls, personal letters, etc., but Maryland has been really, really good presenting actual programs that would make a difference to him, academically and career-wise.
Harvard cachet, etc. All true.
Yes, there's a younger son, too, who will be off to college in two more years. He's just as darned smart as his older brother, but more math-science than languages. He's actually probably a better fit for Harvard, as he's interested in theoretical physics or math, not engineering.
I think I'll be handle the cost of his education, too, especially as while they're both in school, the financial aid for each will be more generous (assuming the older doesn't go to Maryland, which creates a separate circumstance).
Glass ceilings - Yes. My son, not wishing to be an investment banker, has no thoughts of making upper seven-figure or low eight-figure incomes as an engineer. But he has an uncle who became president of an established Atlanta-based civil engineering firm, and who made well into six figures during his career. And that would do nicely.
Happy Easter to you, too!
Thanks,
sitetest
I just finished reading your post. Maryland, no contest. A free ride scholarship will have a tremendous long-term effect on you and your son. The diploma will buy him a foot in the door, but his real selling point will be how he performs in his job for the first few years. If he keeps his grades high and works hard in internships and post-grad jobs, then he’ll be fine.
I would agree somewhat, but mostly because the pool is smaller. That’s the route I took (see above), mostly for the same reasons that everyone here has advocated Maryland.
Not sure that’s the best approach.
Thank you for your post.
However, Maryland's classics program is, at best, a bit mediocre. My son, at 17, is already mostly beyond the undergrad level in the field. At Hopkins, the professor to whom he spoke wished to start him off with masters’ level courses that would apply to both a bachelors and masters. There are areas of competence my son has in this discipline for which there are very few professors in the United States to teach.
We do plan to try to meet with the classics faculty at Maryland to get a more up-close look at things.
But it is as an engineer that he plans to make a living, not an academic classicist. So, some compromise may be required.
As for graduate school, if he goes to Maryland (or Hopkins) the plan is to take advantage of their five-year BS/MS in engineering program. Most folks get the fifth year free through research appointments at Maryland.
I don't honestly know if he'd get into Stanford or MIT. Harvard was a crapshoot. He was, after all, rejected at both Princeton (better engineering school) and Yale.
sitetest
Decide what your educational goal is and use colleges to achieve your goal not theirs.
Financially, I'd register as a full time student at the cheapest and pick and choose classes at the others during summer or a semester or two at another.
My son got business classes from one, music from another and music-business from a third. He's now a professional musician, but has backup education to supplement and support his chosen professional.
Hillsdale college.
Congrats on raising such great kids..
My son did the Latin camp at Christendom one summer. He had a complete blast. But it's not a trip that he might make more than once a year. It's about three hours from us, each way.
Being a graduate of CUA, I just don't think I'd support him going there under any circumstances whatsoever.
sitetest
Buy him a sword
I'd suggest to sweeten the pot for his decision, if he chooses Maryland, tell him you'll invest for him, for the next 4 years, the money you'd have spent at Harvard or Hopkins, and he can help manage the investment
Nice cushion to start his graduate/PhD studies or other professional beginning
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