1st Pennsylvania Regiment filled with good shots

Reading Eagle (PA) ^ | 12-30-11 | Bruce Posten

[Pharmboy]

What made Revolutionary War riflemen in the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment of the Continental Line so special?

They were good shots using the right gun, a Pennsylvania long rifle with curved grooves in the barrel and a soft lead ball, according to reenactors.

"These were sharpshooters who usually fought in pairs and were accurate in hitting a target within 200 to 300 yards," said Gregory A. Kreitz, 62, of Lower Heidelberg Township, a reenactor with the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment.

Using the Pennsylvania long rifle, a second sharpshooter was usually ready to fire when the first one finished, often from behind the cover of trees, ever ready for a tactical retreat to be able to fight again.

Most soldiers in military battle formations carried smooth-bore muskets, accurate only within 50 to 60 yards, but with bayonets attached for the inevitability of close-up fighting.

"With a musket, you might be able to get about three shots off in a minute, but with a rifle you only got one in that time, but it could be more accurate and deadly," said Kurt Ulrich, 52, Malvern Chester County, another reenactor. "The riflemen didn't have the bayonet, but usually carried a knife and tomahawk."

In his book "The Pennsylvania Line," historian John B.B. Trussell wrote of Pvt. Timothy Murphy of the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment fighting in upstate New York during the Saratoga campaign.

"On one occasion Col. Daniel Morgan told Pvt. Timothy Murphy, one of (Capt. James) Parr's men who was an especially fine marksman, to bring down the British Gen. Simon Fraser, and Murphy picked off the general with his first shot," Trussell wrote.

In 18th century warfare, targeting horses, artillery men, generals and drummer boys often led to chaos in the command ranks.

A good rifleman was often responsible for that.

[BallandPowder]

Powder..patch..ball FIRE!

Black Powder 101 is in session.
I wonder how long the barrels were on those things.
Barrel lengths 42 to 46 inches.

I bet those rifles kicked like a mule.

Actually not so bad. Black powder burn differently than smokeless and with a patch ball pressures aren't nearly as great. Also the heft of the weapon help.

[BallandPowder]

Powder..patch..ball FIRE! "With a musket, you might be able to get about three shots off in a minute, but with a rifle you only got one in that time, but it could be more accurate and deadly,"

My personal best was at a camp competition. 50 cal Hawken percussion, loaded and fired 4 rounds in one minute.

I broke a couple of safety rules to do it though.
Loaded from the horn by hand and kept the spare balls in my cheek to spit into the barrel. Set the club record though. Stands to this day.

[KoRn]

Thanks guys for the good information and correcting my misconception regarding the recoil of the rifles.

Now I have a question.

Since those rifles were made with Black Powder in mind, would it be unsafe, or not advisable to use Smokeless Powder in them instead? No one likes turning their guns into a bomb! lol

[NonValueAdded]

and heaven forbid you call it a Kentucky Long Rifle! Happy New Year

[The Working Man]

I recall reading that the Welsh Longbow had a much faster fire rate approximately ten arrows to three round from a musket and had a better accuracy in the hands of a trained archer. The range for the bow was longer than the musket.

The huge problem was that to use the Welsh longbow took years to learn and build up the muscles to use it also. And it took continuous practice usually one to three hours a day to keep the aim and muscles loosened up for extended usage as required ion battle.

The musket on the other hand could be wielded by a relatively weaker man and since the accuracy of the musket wasn’t all that great that didn’t matter as much either especially when used in large to massive ranks firing in volleys at the enemy.

[silverleaf]

Thanks for the article.
Have not done geneaology for some time but remembered that an ancestor (7 X G grandfather) served in the PA Rifle regiment, Capt Joseph Erwin (ala Irwin) - fought in NJ and re-enlisted and stayed with Washington through Valley Forge, as my memory recalls.

Was among the first from the Western PA frontier (Hannastown) to answer the call and join Washington’s army. He was a fairly old dude when he joined the Rev army, a veteran of the French and Indian campaign, survivor of daily life on the PA frontier from the 1730’s, and probably a good sniper!

I found his name in this document
http://www.neilelvick.com/Book/append_2.htm

[BallandPowder]

Powder..patch..ball FIRE!

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER put smokeless powder in a blackpowder specific weapon.

NEVER NEVER NEVER Even small amounts of smokeless powder in a blackpowder weapon is dangerous and can be fatal.

[silverleaf]

Half of my western PA ancestors were Scots-Irish who fought in the war, and the other half were PA German farmers, most of whom served in the war- difference was they served by keeping the famrs going, raising supplies and defending the homes and families of those away fighting and keeping the settlements going and growing while the fighting men were away.

I’m sure German farmers’ sons actually went to the lines (I had at least one who did) but in western PA, many appeared to serve in the rear- growing food, raising money to buy weapons, smithing, making and storing powder, building block houses, defending the frontier towns and settlers from the Brit-Indian rear guard “war of terror”.

[silverleaf]

You should dig up old copies of the History of Westmoreland County that were published in the late 1800’s- they are wonderful reads

You might find your ancestor’s names mentioned, if lucky maybe even pictures. Your ancestors probably knew and lived near mine

Here is a link to an online copy of Chapter 1 of one of these old histories. My ancestors discussed here were Jack, Lochry and Erwin among others

http://www.pa-roots.com/westmoreland/historyproject/vol1/chap11.html

[hoosiermama]

Both of my ancestors involved in the war signed the Bradford Accord before the war.

Do you have any information of it?

[Pharmboy]

Thanks for setting the record straight on the “kick” of a black powder gun. I’ve never shot one, but hope to someday.

[Pharmboy]

Very interesting. General Hugh Mercer (who died a hero's death at Princeton) was a Scot physician who came to PA and went west to fight the Indians on the frontier (he had always been a bit more of a fighter than doctor). He had felt uncomfortable among the Quakers and settled about halfway between Greencastle and what is now Mercersburg.

Mercer joined Washington, Braddock, Daniel Boone and Dan Morgan (among others) for that fateful defeat on the Monangahela in 1755. Perhaps your G7 was there.

Mercer moved to Fredericksburg , VA after that, married an American Scots woman and had 5 children. One of his direct descendants was General Patton.

[silverleaf]

I know of the Hannastown Resolution (signed by Hannastown settlers against the British in 1775, pre Declaration of Independence) but nothing of the Bradford accord- maybe you can forward a link

[silverleaf]

I had a G8 (Jeremiah Lochry/Laughrey/Loughrey)who served with Braddock. Reportedly Jeremiah wasn’t with Braddock at the Battle of the Wlderness...

It seems to me I read that when the French and Indian war kicked up, some of my ancestors (Jeremiah Lochry, “Captain Jack”) offered their services to Braddock to form a special unconventional unit to fight the Indians in the way they knew the Indians fought the settlers- brutal hit and run, then fade back into the woods-stealth and mobility-

“Captain Jack” is still a legend in central PA (Jacks mountain) His family was massacred in central PA (which turned him into a one-man vigilante, a frontier Charles Bronson who gave the Indians worse than they gave him)

They may have been one of America’s first Spec Ops teams. Braddock’s staff and red coats were contemptuous of these frontiersmen with their rifles and buckskins- they didn’t even have uniforms nor fight like gentlemen and most were hard scrabble Irish immigrants, not upper class English

Seems to me that fighting Indians and maybe even alongside their fathers who were F&I war veterans is where Joseph Erwin and others would have picked up skills and creds that led him into being a company commander for the PA Rifles in the Rev War

The more you look the more everyone gets entwined, there were not a lot of families living in the PA frontiers in those times

[hoosiermama]

I was hoping you could help me find a link...LOL

We have a published family book with information about the family, including the family legend that one of the ancestor stole the white horse for Washington that Tully painted him riding.

Both Daniel Mathius(sp) and Michael Sanior(sp) signed the Bradford Accord and the picture of their signature is included in the book....However, I have not been able to find out more information on the document other than what is given in the book.

[Pharmboy]

Don’t feel too bad about Braddock not listening to your G8...he also didn’t listen to Washington. His not listening to anyone cost him his life (visited his grave last year driving from DC to Cincinnati).

[ZULU]

Thanks for that link Pharmboy. Have a Great New Year.

[ZULU]

The Pennsylvania Rifle was, in large part, a product of those German immigrants - many from the Rhineland-Palatinate area of western Germany. They included gunsmiths in their ranks and target shooting and hunting was a big past time in Germany. Their Jaeger-building skills produced a refined product for eastern forest hunting and warfare, directed by their primary customers - Native American hunters and colonial backwoodsmen.

[ZULU]

42” or so. And they don’t “kick”. More like a mild shove.

Blackpowder doesn’t generate the breech pressure of modern gunpowder and those guns tended to have heavy barrels. The ones with straight stocks like the Lancaster styles had the least observable recoil. The elegant looking Roman Nosed style rifles tended to push upwards generating a more noticeable recoil.

I have a modern semi-custom repro of one in .58 caliber with a swamped barrel that weighs a little over 10 lbs.

[ZULU]

It took YEARS of training to make a good longbowman. Some of those bows had over a 150 lb pull, based on reconstructions of bows taken from the Mary Rose.

On the other hand, you could create a decent shot with a musket in a few weeks training and perhaps a good rifleman in manybe a few months of heavy practicing.