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A Letter to the Pope: How To Do Latin Right
American Chronicle ^ | Sept, 2007 | Bruce Deitrick Price

Posted on 11/30/2011 7:20:08 PM PST by BruceDeitrickPrice

>>>THIS ARTICLE FIRST APPEARED FOUR YEARS AGO. STILL A HOT TOPIC.>>>> The Vatican recently announced a return to the Latin Mass for congregations that wish to use it. Much of the world was bewildered or bemused. Oh great, old-fashioned religionists will be listening to sonorous noise that nobody understands.

Ah, but what if they did!

I believe the Pope’s decision is a great opportunity, both for spiritual enlightenment and educational advances. Perhaps I should mention that I’m not a Catholic or someone who goes to religious ceremonies of any kind. I write as an education activist; in that context, let’s acknowledge that Catholic parochial schools have saved millions of children from the educational dumbing-down so prevalent in public schools since “progressives” took over a century ago. Parochial schools usually do a better job with half the budget; so I’m a big fan of these places. And it’s this record of educational achievement that I want to extend. With Latin’s help. Here’s how:

Basically, Catholics should not settle for sonorous noise. The goal should be that worshippers not only hear Latin but also understand Latin. “Pax vobiscum.” Just strange sounds? Why settle when we can all hear “Peace be with you,” whether we normally speak Chinese, Spanish, Russian, Zulu, or whatever.

When these Latin speeches were written centuries ago, they were universally understood, That was the point. And it should be so again. It’s odd to me that the Church settled for so long. One sign of this was putting (as I believe is usually the case) the two languages on facing pages. It takes a clever person to make the connection across separate pages. But with interlinear texts, one starts to see what means what. Back that up with bits of instruction in Sunday school, evening classes, etc. In a year or two, most Catholics will know what the main passages mean. They will have the best of both world--sonorous, majestic Latin, and clear, reverberant meaning--all around the world.

Now let’s consider the educational dividends. For every child, learning a second language is a plus. Note: children don’t need to master a language to learn important lessons about grammar, vocabulary, linguistics, not to mention history. Any second language helps; but Latin is especially positive because it’s the root of so much English and of most European languages. Latin pulses today throughout the legal and medical professions. Less known is this bombshell: more than 300 common English words are actually pure Latin! (More on this in a moment.) Latin is the dead language that refuses to play dead. It continues to stage comebacks in finer schools everywhere. Let me just mention this happy, totally unexpected news: You can now have your Google homepage in Latin!!

Experts say the younger that children learn a second language, the better. But guess what our progressive educators have done. They have nearly stopped foreign-language instruction in the early grades. I’ve puzzled over this a great deal. Why do such a dumb thing? And here’s the best answer I have. Our educators, for 75 years, have been pushing a bogus reading pedagogy called Whole Word (a/k/a sight reading and other names). I’ve been studying this thing for several years and here’s my bottom line: a scam from start to finish (exactly what Rudolf Flesch claimed in “Why Johnny Can’t Read.”) So imagine the problem for the scammers: children learning French phonetically in one class, then learning English non-phonetically in the next class. It won’t fly. Every child, every parent, would feel immediately that something was rotten in PS 101. What to do? Our educators, in their infinite wisdom, ditched second languages for kids.

Now the Catholic Church can subvert both the misery of Whole Word and the bad tactics of public school educators. Catholic kids, via Latin, will be exposed to a second language early and often! Lovely, huh? In learning to understand the Mass, Catholic kids will get a jumpstart in all their studies.

I’m proud to say I’ve been pushing Latin for decades--ever since I realized that I had taken three years of high school Latin but nobody had bothered to tell me that we are surrounded in our daily lives by pure Latin words. Words like arena, exit, forum, bonus, professor, transit, pelvis, ratio...I wrote to the classical association and said they ought to put out a booklet that capitalizes on this dramatic fact. Talking about etymologies and cognates doesn’t have the same emotional impact. Identicals, that’s the key. Words that children use that Caesar also used! Well, the people-in-charge didn’t seem to get it. In frustration, I compiled my own list and published an article called Latin Lives On--A List of 333 Common Words Letter-For-Letter Identical in Latin and English. (This first appeared in 1985, and can be found on Google now. LINK BELOW.)

And here I am today presuming to advise the Pope. Some at the Vatican might say, “But, Mr. Price, we really don’t care about the educational trickle-down; our concern is with spiritual truths, the teachings of Jesus, etc.” And I’m saying, it’s not a matter of achieving this or that; take everything! You can help Catholic kids do better in school. You can help defeat the klingons from the ed schools. And you can deepen the spiritual truths--experiencing them in two languages has to be higher, better.

In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.

In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Truth and beauty is, as Keats tells us, all you know and all you need to know. A stately language, searching for God--seems to me that everything comes together in the Latin Mass when worshippers know what those mysterious words mean.

----------------------------------------

NOTE: POPE MUST HAVE SEEN LETTER. MORE THAN 75 CATHOLIC SITES LINKED TO THIS ARTICLE.

“3: Latin Lives On” can be found on Improve-Education.org.

http://www.improve-education.org/latinliveson.html

Virtually every English class, History class, and of course Latin class can put this list of 333 Latin/English words to good use.

.


TOPICS: Education; History; Reference; Religion
KEYWORDS: catholic; classics; language; latin; latinlanguage; reading; universal

1 posted on 11/30/2011 7:20:13 PM PST by BruceDeitrickPrice
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice

ping


2 posted on 11/30/2011 7:22:13 PM PST by victim soul
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice
Still, it can make a huge difference depending on whether the Congregation elects to pronounce the Latin words with a modern twang, a Medieval church sonority, or a correct First Century AD Roman diction.

I learned Roman pronunciation and as a result Adeste Fidelis always sounds so strange sung in that Medieval voice.

3 posted on 11/30/2011 7:27:16 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
I learned Roman pronunciation and as a result Adeste Fidelis always sounds so strange sung in that Medieval voice.

I actually think "Adeste Fidelis" sounds better when sung in classical Latin, although I have never heard any choir sing it that way.

4 posted on 11/30/2011 7:44:45 PM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice
"Romanus eunt domum!"

That'll get you into trouble real quick with the garrison!

5 posted on 11/30/2011 7:46:36 PM PST by 17th Miss Regt
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To: muawiyah
or a correct First Century AD Roman diction

You have the tapes?

6 posted on 11/30/2011 7:46:56 PM PST by Jim Noble (To live peacefully with credit-based consumption and fiat money, men would have to be angels.)
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To: Fiji Hill
Virtually all the modern American choirs sing it with a distinctly Eastern Kentucky twang ~ dipthongs and all.

I'd like to think things will get better

7 posted on 11/30/2011 7:48:41 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Jim Noble
The Roman Pronunciation of Latin by Frances Long (Boston: Ginn, 1894) is a competent guide to the pronunciation of classical Latin.
8 posted on 11/30/2011 7:54:50 PM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: Jim Noble
The Medieval version is taught in Catholic parochial schools. Outside of that the Roman "reconstructed pronunciation" is very popular just about everywhere. I think folks who go on to learn to speak Latin (mostly Catholic priests) get busy and learn the Medieval system or this system based on standard Italian.

Right now the Google Translate version for written Latin is perfectly adequate for what I need to do (read old stuff) ~ plus, ALL the idiomatic expressions are fixed in time and are well known so you can look them up outside of Google in case you forget what one of them means.

Singing is the thing ~there are still popular songs in Latin (Carl Orff made sure of that ~ see: Carmina Burana ). I prefer my Latin pronounced in Latin and not English or Italian

9 posted on 11/30/2011 7:56:49 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice
Missals prior to Vatican II had the words of the Mass both in Latin and English.

Many words in English (and other languages) were derived from Latin and can be found in the dictionary.

Everyone should have the opportunity to experience the Latin Mass, as it is very solemn and beautiful, especially with the Gregorian chant.

10 posted on 11/30/2011 8:00:36 PM PST by ADSUM (Body of Christ is the Church, gathered around the crucified risen Lord and fed by Him in Communion.)
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To: ADSUM

My mother was not happy when the Mass went from Latin to English, and still isn’t. I wasn’t born yet so have never heard a fully Latin Mass. As you said, my mom told me how the words were in English on the opposite page if you needed it, but she was the soloist at our church and had learned a lot of the Latin. Every song she sang was in Latin. My mom barely graduated high school but sang in Latin beautifully. Our church’s choir was always invited to sing in different places because of her voice. It’s a little sad now because she’s nearing 80 and can’t sing anymore. Man she could hit those high notes! I guess my family is living proof that musical talent skips a generation— my daughter is very talented, me— let’s just say not so much!


11 posted on 11/30/2011 8:56:07 PM PST by MacMattico
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To: ADSUM

My mother was not happy when the Mass went from Latin to English, and still isn’t. I wasn’t born yet so have never heard a fully Latin Mass. As you said, my mom told me how the words were in English on the opposite page if you needed it, but she was the soloist at our church and had learned a lot of the Latin. Every song she sang was in Latin. My mom barely graduated high school but sang in Latin beautifully. Our church’s choir was always invited to sing in different places because of her voice. It’s a little sad now because she’s nearing 80 and can’t sing anymore. Man she could hit those high notes! I guess my family is living proof that musical talent skips a generation— my daughter is very talented, me— let’s just say not so much!


12 posted on 11/30/2011 8:56:07 PM PST by MacMattico
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice

YAY YOU! Thanks, this was wonderful! Everything you said was true.
We have a Tridentine mass every Sunday afternoon. Just reading the English and Latin words together has reminded me of some of the bits of Latin I learned years ago from singing Monteverdi’s or Mozart’s music. When I was growing up (forty years before I became a Catholic) all masses were said in Latin, which was fascinating to me. A beautiful concept, that a Catholic could walk into any Catholic church in the world and know what was going on because it was all in Latin.


13 posted on 11/30/2011 9:10:45 PM PST by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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To: 17th Miss Regt
Of course--you misquoted the graffiti.

It said: Romanes eunt domum!.

Does anyone know how the slogan Deo vindice would have been pronounced by Southrons circa 1861? Particularly the second word: "windy-kay" or "vin-di-chay" or "vin-di-see"? Or two syllables: "vin" and "dice" (as in the English word)?

14 posted on 11/30/2011 9:12:28 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: Fiji Hill

OK, I tried with that, but I just can’t do it. I can imitate any language or accent if I can actually hear it, but making sense of this from a written explanation is not working for me. Does anyone have a suggestion about where I could actually hear a recording of someone speaking Latin with a Roman pronunciation?


15 posted on 11/30/2011 9:29:42 PM PST by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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To: ottbmare
Does anyone have a suggestion about where I could actually hear a recording of someone speaking Latin with a Roman pronunciation?

Try Youtube. I haven't searched it for Latin, but it's a great asset for hearing how foreign languages are pronounced.

16 posted on 11/30/2011 10:02:44 PM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: Verginius Rufus
Does anyone know how the slogan Deo vindice would have been pronounced by Southrons circa 1861? Particularly the second word: "windy-kay" or "vin-di-chay" or "vin-di-see"? Or two syllables: "vin" and "dice" (as in the English word)?

My guess would be "windy-kay." In those days, Latin was far more prevalent in the schools, and the classical pronunciation would probably have been used.

17 posted on 11/30/2011 10:08:01 PM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: Fiji Hill
I think that in the 19th century in England, they had a weird pronounciation of Latin that was neither the attempt to reproduce the way Latin was pronounced in Cicero's day nor the Italian pronunciation used by the Catholic Church. I don't know if the same system was in use in the US.

There are some classical scholars who have made tapes of readings in Latin and Greek that they believe to be even closer to the original pronunciation than other scholars have used. There is a Society for the Oral Reading of Greek and Latin Literature. I'm not sure if there are any online readings that can be listened to for free. Robert P. Sonkowsky of the University of Minnesota and Stephen G. Daitz of the City University of New York are among those who do these readings.

18 posted on 12/01/2011 11:58:46 AM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: Verginius Rufus
I ran across a blog post, available here that discusses "Westminster Latin," which was developed in England and pronounced as though it were English. For example, the expression in exitu... would be pronounced "in excite you." This again raises the question as to how Southrons in 1861 would have said, Deo vindice!
19 posted on 12/01/2011 1:40:53 PM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: Fiji Hill

You can look for recordings of famous poets. I remember finding poems by Catullus, and I was struck by how soft it was, pre-Italian, so so speak, when I had falsely assumed Latin was harsh.

Of course, it was a professsor’s reconstruction but it sounded great.


20 posted on 12/01/2011 7:03:41 PM PST by BruceDeitrickPrice (education reform)
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