Posted on 08/02/2011 7:11:00 PM PDT by Feline_AIDS
The following is the short version of how I recently discovered Mormonism is nothing like I thought it was.
A few weeks ago, ABC announced that former kidnapping and rape victim Elizabeth Smart would join them as a commenter on kidnapping cases around the country. With the memory of Casey Anthony lingering in my head, I thought, I'll youtube Elizabeth Smart and see what kind of smooth talker she is to be asked to do this. What I found was a beautiful, poised, graceful woman who would never stoop to entering a "hot body contest" like Casey Anthony, but certainly not one I would have guessed would become a news commenter. Those people are expected to repeat facts we've all already heard at least 2374828 times before, only in a more "impactful" way. She seems like the type not to speak unless she has something to say, which is a great and rare quality, however it's certainly not what we expect to see on TV.
So I started googling. I was 16 when Elizabeth Smart was abducted, too young to be scared or concerned because Utah was across the country and if my mother's constant warnings had reflected any shadow of reality, people were abducted left and right all the time anyway.
I read Elizabeth Smart's (ES) testimony in Brian David Mitchell's (BDM) competency hearing, BDM's first interview with police in Sandy, Utah, Wanda Barzee's testimony at BDM's trial, ES's testimony at BDM's trial, ES's statement at BDM's sentencing, the testimony of a head doctor at BDM's competency hearing, and a few articles written soon after ES was found.
As I read, I realized that I knew very little about Mormonism, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I knew they believed in odd things, Jesus visiting America after his resurrection for example, but that was the extent of my knowledge. (Oh, also a family story: When the Mormons came through South Carolina in the late 1800s, they told one of my relatives that he could have two or more wives if he became a Mormon and went to Utah. He tried to get his current wife to go with him, but she wasn't having it, and he went by himself. He returned a year or two later claiming that the new wives they had given him were combined not as pretty as the wife he already had in South Carolina. She took him back.)
After some more googling, I learned that Mormons believe the following (not exhaustive):
-God has a physical body
-God was once a man, and men on Earth can become equal to God
-God lives near the star Kolob
-God is accompanied by a goddess (or goddesses), who is too holy to talk about, and possibly more powerful/holy than God himself
-Jesus and Satan were brothers
-Jesus was married
-Good Mormons will be rewarded for their works by getting their own planet over which they'll have dominion just like God has over us
-The Bible is imperfectly translated and cannot be trusted
-A tribe of Jews came to North America and perpetuated a HUGE advanced civilization of millions of people (for which there is zero archeological evidence)
-The good tribe was annihilated by the bad tribe in one giant battle in New York state that killed 2+ million people
-The LDS church is controlled by a group of people who receive "revelations" about what to do
-The LDS church has a president whose revelations frequently alter or update church doctrine
(Here's where I'll say that not all Mormons believe these things, because they probably just don't know. Similarly, lots of people who attend my Presbyterian church probably know little about Calvin or what we disagree with other Christians about. Mormons have a policy that some on exmormon.org called "Milk before meat," meaning new members/converts are not told all these beliefs until they are very deeply involved in the church.)
This was quite surprising to me. Mormons are polytheists. Mormonism, I suppose, is actually closer to Islam than it is to Christianity. Islam is defined by the Koran, which is essentially the "final chapter" of the story begun in the Bible. The Book of Mormon is also a "final chapter" of the story begun in the Bible. Both of them radically alter Christianity to the point that it is nothing like it.
Now how does this relate to Elizabeth Smart? She and her Mormon family met her abductor when he was panhandling in SLC. Her mother gave him some money and IIRC, asked if he needed work. Little did she know he was scoping out candidates for the 14-year-old wives he had received a revelation to take. ES's family had him come work on their home. Perhaps you could call this Christian charity, and perhaps that's what it is. But part of me wonders if, since Mormonism is largely a works-based salvation model, their willingness to help BDM was bolstered by the need to do good works. I don't think this equates to blame--not even close. But it might help explain why they invited a drifter they didn't know to come work on a roof where skylights provided a view of the floorplan leading to their daughter's bedroom. I read some past posts on FR about the BDM trial, and the consensus among Freepers commenting was 1) the father, Ed Smart, is ultra creepy, and 2) it was his fault for inviting a bum to work on the house. The declarations of "creepiness" of the father are unfair, I think, because he was the police's #1 suspect at first, he was emotional, his daughter had been kidnapped from the seemingly safe home he had provided for her, and he knew she was probably going through hell. He deserves credit for keeping her story in the news while she was gone and for not giving up hope that she was alive. The fault here belongs to BDM and Wanda Barzee, his wife and accomplice.
To her credit, Elizabeth Smart testified she never believed that BDM was receiving revelations from God, and she never thought he was the prophet he claimed to be. (Lots of people wondered why she didn't run since she was out in public. She testified repeatedly that BDM told her that he would kill her, or if she escaped, her family. He knew people who could do it for him if he was taken to jail. And he was able to get in her house to take her, so why shouldn't she believe the rest?) But Mormonism leaves the door open to these people--these false prophets, one of whom was Joseph Smith himself. BDM was a rapist and a pedophile and deserves to die for his crimes, I think. (He won't--he got a life sentence in his federal trial. Fun BDM anecdote from Wanda Barzee's testimony: He killed his stepdaughter's pet rabbit and fed it to her, telling her it was chicken.) But he was also imitating the theological behavior that the LDS church was founded on. Reading what Wanda Barzee, BDM's wife, said as she testified only confirmed this. Barzee was mentally unstable, but she was also a devout LDS follower. She believed in this culture of latter-day saints and revelations, and it was that belief that enabled her to follow BDM and believe his revelations about plural wives, alcohol, drugs, and the rape of a 14-year-old girl.
The Latter-Day Saints model is a clever design, really. Christianity, "when it happened," physically benefitted no one. Mormonism benefitted Joseph Smith. Christians know that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and that they are saved by grace; there is nothing they can do to earn their salvation. But the LDS Church informs members of "callings," which are works they must perform to remain in good standing. The LDS church has a steady supply of indentured workers laboring desperately for their salvation.
I'm not surprised that something like this exists; I'm surprised that so many people are hoodwinked by the story Joseph Smith made up. Sure, you could say that Christianity is just a story someone made up, too. But the Bible is a historical document that references real people, real people groups, and real places. The Book of Mormon is a fairytale.
Back to Elizabeth Smart: I hope she lives a full and happy life. I genuinely like her and her attitude. I want her to succeed as an ABC correspondent. It was evident from her testimony that she has put the past where it belongs and is moving on with her life, and that is something that I am thrilled to see. She is refusing to be a victim, and is instead claiming ownership over herself and her life. Good for her. I hope when she becomes a goddess, she gets a nice planet like earth to rule over, and not some frozen chunk of ice like Pluto.
-- Sites that I visited while considering these things:
Elizabeth Smart's testimony in BDM's competency hearing http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2009-10/49605279.pdf
BDM's sentencing hearing http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=15696692
Elizabeth Smart's testimony part 1 http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50632966-76/smart-viti-yes-elizabeth.html.csp
part 2 http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50639245-76/smart-viti-yes-cable.html.csp
part 3 http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50647494-76/elizabeth-mitchell-smart-viti.html.csp
Wanda Barzee's testimony in BDM trial http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50704089-76/steele-barzee-mcknight-mitchell.html.csp
http://exmormon.org/ and http://www.exmormon.org/phorum/
Lifting the Veil of Polygamy - Documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-iIOWOblW0
The Bible vs The Book of Mormon - Documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTtq62XQ4jw&feature=relmfu
Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer
Chill out. I never said Mormons were bad people.
I simply stated a fact, that my professor stated that it follows the same model as Islam, as alluded to by the author’s post. I didn’t say it has the same doctrine (and neither did the author): there’s a big difference.
Your critical thinking skills are absent.
Yep, PD was quite the character. Maybe he’ll be back as someone else.
I really didn't know anything other than Mormons thought Jesus came to North America and appeared to Indians. The information I gathered was mostly from exmormon.org and the documentaries by Living Hope Ministries.
You may not believe me, but I really did read about Elizabeth Smart becoming an ABC correspondent, and I had a rather morbid thought: How did she not conceive BDM's child? I read the trial transcripts to find out, and while there was particularly perplexed by Wanda Barzee's testimony, leading me to explore more.
“The author of the article isva liar. Not knowing anything about Mormonism and doing investigating, BS. He laid out the same old tired screed that we as members have seen thousands of times”
Clearly, you must be a Mormon. You used mormonism’s first knee jerk response: call opponents liars. You quickly followed that with ad hominem attacks that ignored any facts and closed with calling all arguments old screeds.
The truth is you presented no:
Facts
Evidence
Logical arguments
The authors article stands unrefuted.
A Mormon woman I know told me that her sister is married to a Muslim man from a foreign country. He has another wife. The connection of both religions with polygamy, as well well the tendency toward large families are certainly two points of resemblance.
I was taking the same vane as the author: Islam and Mormonism both:
1- cancel out the Canon of Scripture when it doesn’t fit their theology
2- have never produced evidence to support their claim of errancy in Scripture (i.e.; manuscript evidence or otherwise)
3- both claim divine revelation that trumps all previous revelation (related to the first two points; but is unique in itself because they claim divine revelation)
4- the sum of their theology bares no resemblence to Christianity; even though there are similar names used
5- both (and this is real important) occur well after the Apostolic era and the closing of the Canon of Scripture. Islam for example, 500 years after! In order to understand the significance of that, one has to do a study on both.
Ping
(Here’s where I’ll say that not all Mormons believe these things, because they probably just don’t know.
- - - - - - -
The doctrines you listed above are teachings all ‘active’ LDS know and believe and there are more. Like God has a God who had a God ad infinitum, that we will be Gods someday with our own planets
However, the LDS believe in what they call ‘line upon line’ which means they will not admit many of the teachings to ‘gentiles’ or outsiders.
Some of the more obscure ones (ones they call speculation) is that Jesus was a polygamist and that is why he was crucified.
That the wedding in Cana was Jesus marriage to Mary.
That Mary was God’s ‘wife’ and He came down to have sex with her to conceive Jesus.
That a woman who is not married will not become a goddess or even get to heaven because only a husband who is a ‘righteous priesthood holder’ and who marries her in the LDS temple can resurrect her.
Yes, I can source all of the above and much more.
It goes on but some great sites for information are...
www.mormonoutreach.org
and
UTLM.org
Also, I am more than happy to discuss any LDS teachings and history with anyone, just ask either in forum or via freepmail.
“Mormonism is not even close to having the slightest resemblance to Islam, unless both having a prophet makes them similar.”
“If the people will let us alone we will preach the gospel in peace. But if they come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘Alcoran or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us — ‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’”
PD was zotted awhile back. I kinda miss him.
Yep, like I miss a rash on my buttocks.
Do Mormons believe that all non-Mormons must be converted to Mormonism by force, and if they refuse to murder them
________________________________________________
“Joseph Smith or the sword”
(Joseph Smith, religious guru and founder of Mormonism)
they believe that The Holy Ghost is God.
_______________________________________________
Actually they dont...
the mormon holy ghost is about equal to a lap dog or a mascot
a mormon god has to have bones and the mormon holy ghost has not done enough good works to “earn” its bones as yet...
All mormon gods were once men...
Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
That is the best reason to be concerned about Mormons. For they are leading people into Hell.
The LDS are very close to Islam in many ways, in Haiti they allied themselves with a muslim charity with ties to terrorism rather than one of the established Christian charities. There have been articles posted here the last few years extolling how muslims are welcome and happy at BYU and among Mormons. Grey or Colo would probably be able to provide a list of links.
But to answer your questions....
Do Mormons believe that killing non-Mormons will get them fast entry into heaven with 72 virgins awaiting them? - Not the 72 virgins, but the LDS for many years taught and practiced ‘blood atonement’ and had an assassination group called the “danites” lead by Porter orin Rockwell who not only killed ‘apostates’ but others both LDS and non.
Do Mormons believe that all non-Mormons must be converted to Mormonism by force, and if they refuse to murder them? - The Mormon founder, Joseph Smith, prophesied that the day would come when it would be “Joseph Smith or the Sword” and compared himself to Mohammed. I can give you the full quote if you wish.
Do Mormons believe in forcing their laws on every one else? - Yes, as evidenced by some of the more stricter laws still on the books in Utah.
Do Mormons forbid women to show their faces in public, can’t go to school, can not drive cars, and can be raped so long as there are no 4 Mormon males in witness? - that would be the polygamist groups who are offshoots of Mormonism but much of that was true in the early days of Utah.
The also believe that someday Mormonism will be the one world religion.
Yes, I can source all of the above.
Mormonism is more dangerous than Islam if for no other reason than many people, such as yourself do not think them a danger, or consider them ‘just another Christian denomination’. None of the leaders who practiced or taught the above have ever been condemned or repudiated by the current or recent LDS leadership.
BTW, see my tagline.
Only Mormons would take a risk in trying to help a person they perceived as in need
- - - - -
It goes to motivation. For Christians the motivation is to help others, to show Christ. For Mormons it is required to be ‘worthy’ and to earn godhood for themselves.
Do you do ‘good works’ thinking that it will help you become a god?
They will say that they believe in Jesus, but they will fudge and squirm and try to change the subject when you try to pin them down.
- - - - -
Or flat out lie about their teachings. Its called ‘lying for the Lord’ and was one of the reasons I ended up not serving my LDS mission. I couldn’t rationalize lying about doctrine even though that is what I was being told to do.
they believe that Jesus Christ is God
___________________________________________
Actually the Mormons dont
their mormon jesus didnt start out as a god...
insterad he was merely just another son of a mormon god and the older brother of Lucifer/Satan
(In fact Lucifer offered to be the “savior” and ruler of Earth before the mormon jesus was given the job...)
The mormon god came to earth and had sex with Mary and thats how the mormon jesus camnme to be...
Like all other mormon gods, the mormon jesus had to earn his “godhood”
The mormon jesus did not shed his blood on the cross and die on the cross for the salvation of the Mormons
the mormon jesus had his big moment in the Garden of Gethsemene when he sweated for the “atonement” of the Mormons..
The cross thing was unplanned...the mormon jesus was a “victim”
Still the Mormon jesus cant cover every sin...
If you murder someone you are on your own...
The Mormon jesus has little to do with forgiveness of sins...
you still have to do works and after you die you will be dead dunked into Mormonism...
And the Mormon jesus is a sinner himself in meed of a savior...
The Mormon jesus is a polygamist with lots of children...
One of your professors was an idiot. Mormonism is not even close to having the slightest resemblance to Islam,
- - - - -
Nope. They are very close. Even their founder Joseph Smith claimed that.
For starters...
http://nowscape.com/mormon/mormon_islam_similarities.htm
http://www.lifeafter.org/Islam_Mormonism.asp
http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/what-do-mormons-think-about-islam/
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islamic-mormonism-similarities.htm
http://www.uvu.edu/religiousstudies/mormonismandislam/
http://www.saintsalive.com/resourcelibrary/mormonism/qi-will-be-a-second-mohammedq
“I will be a second Mohammed to this generation…whose motto, in treating for peace, was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword,’ so shall it be eventually with us, ‘Joseph Smith or the Sword.’ ” (Joseph Smith 1938)
I know Mormonism better than most members and the statements are accurate.
Want me to source them? I will.
They believe God The Father is God,
________________________________________
Actually the Mormons dont
They believe that the mormon god is one of many millions of gods each with his own planet
Each mormon god was a man and had a father
So there you have “god the father” with a father who had a father etc
and all begotten through the Earthly sex act with a goddess wife..one of many polygamist wives
Yes the Mormon god is a polygamist with many wives and many children...
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