Posted on 03/22/2011 4:09:49 AM PDT by bkepley
Looks like everyone's here. Wife, cat, dog, me.
The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First
by Ron Daly
via Guardian of Truth XLI: 4 p. 10-11, February 20, 1997
Paul wrote in his first letter to the Thessalonians, that when the Lord descends from heaven, “the dead in Christ will rise first” (I Thessalonians 4:16).
Apparently, Paul had reason to be concerned that some of the Christians in Thessalonica were uninformed regarding the status of fellow-believers who had died. He wrote to them so that they would not grieve. He states that when the Lord descends from heaven the dead saints will not be forgotten, nor left behind. They will rise before the living are caught up to meet the Lord in the air! “For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep” (I Thessalonians 4:15).
The apostle is not affirming any of the doctrinally erroneous presuppositions of the premillennial heresy. His point is not that the dead saints will rise and be caught up in “the rapture,” a contrived theory of premillennialists. Instead, he implicitly indicates that the dead saints will not be abandoned, but they will rise to meet the Lord together with those who remain. The following verbal phrases constitute the immediate context of Paul’s words, in which actions are ascribed to the Lord and his saints: “The Lord himself ... will descend (katabesetai) from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise (anastesontai) first. Then we who are alive, who are left (perileipomenoi), will be caught up (harpagesometha) in the clouds together with them to meet (apantesin) the Lord in the air, and so we will be (esometha) with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage (parakaleite) one another with these words” (vv. 16-17). Notice the word “then” in verse 17. It translates epeita which in the present context is emphatic, and the term means “after that, in the next place.” The Greek-English Lexicon of The New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Bauer, Arndt-Gingrich-Danker, 284, indicates that epeita is used “to denote succession in enumerations, together with indications of chronological sequence.”
Paul’s point seems to be, immediately after the dead saints rise the living saints will join them to meet the Lord in the air.
The text does not teach a partial resurrection, i.e., that some of the dead, those who are in Christ will be raised at the Lord’s coming, but the wicked dead will remain in the graves for several more years. In the I Thessalonians’ text Paul’s primary focus is on “we who are alive” in Christ and “the dead in Christ.” He is not denying a general resurrection of all the dead, he simply discusses one class of dead persons who will rise. This seems to be the category about which the Thessalonians had inquired, or at least were concerned.
Please consider that Paul does not say, “Only the dead in Christ shall rise,” but he says, “The dead in Christ shall rise first.” Let us ask, first in relation to what? The word “first” is a translation of proton, an adverb which in this text means “first of all, first in order.” Before the living ascend to meet the Lord, the dead in Christ will be raised and both groups shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
According to numerous New Testament texts when Jesus comes to judge the world, all the dead will be raised. “Do not be astonished at this: for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out those who have done good, to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28-29). Peter and John caused much annoyance to the priest, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees “because they were teaching the people and proclaiming that in Jesus there is the resurrection of the dead” (Acts 4:1-2).
Paul affirmed that he was “on trial concerning the hope of the resurrection of the dead” (Acts 23:6). Paul made his defense to Felix the governor, proclaiming “that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous,” and he declared that he was on trial “about the resurrection of the dead” (Acts 24:15,21). The apostle said to the people of Athens that God “has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed . . . they heard of the resurrection of the dead...” (Acts 17:31-32). “For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised...” (I Corinthians 15:52).
In his second letter to the Thessalonians, chapter 1:7-9, Paul states that when the Lord is “revealed from heaven” (the equivalent to “the Lord himself will descend from heaven” in the first letter, 4:16) vengeance will be inflicted on the wicked, but he will be glorified in the saints.
Therefore in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul is not teaching a partial resurrection of some of the dead, neither is he indicating that there will be multiple resurrections of all the dead. There will be only one literal resurrection of all the dead.
Again, as with interdenominational squabbling about pre-trib, post-trib, church on Saturday or Sunday, pants or no pants for women, calvinist or non-, etc., as long as we agree on the core of Christianity ~ belief in God, belief that God sent His son, Jesus, to earth to live and die in human form for the sins of mankind, that on the third day He rose again and now sits on the right hand of God the Father, acceptance of God’s gift of Salvation through His sacrificial death for us giving us eternal life and a home in Heaven ~ I don’t much care to also squabble about how many times God is going to send Jesus to take us home! P.S. I don’t think God much likes how His people squabble amongst themselves either instead of being about His Great Commission.
We don’t totally disagree, N.
If +Paul’s writing to the church at Thessalonica is correct - and I believe them to be - SOMETHING like being swept skyward does occur to the living faithful (after the rising of the sleeping faithful).
Where Orthodox theology departs from that of dispensationalist Protestantism (on this topic) is that Holy Scripture did not put too fine a point on the “how” (men did that much, much later), rather being ready for the “IT.” That we should live our lives all the time as if it were happening in the next five minutes. Follow the path to Christ. Mimic the lives of Saints. Try not to give in to the passions wrought by the fall and the curse of mortality.
I haven’t the foggiest notion whether the faithful will be clothed in eternity at that point. The epistle is silent there. And it’s not an important detail.
I went to their website looking for a downloadable "Judgment Day/end-of-the-world" pdf file with tips on how to prepare, what to do with all of your stuff, what to tell your children so as not to frighten then, what to tell your friends on May 22 when the world is still here, etc.
All I found was scripture and ranting. ; {
As I said in my post...using some quotes...but mostly my own thoughts...you boxed yourself into a corner...and you know it.
"He states that when the Lord descends from heaven the dead saints will not be forgotten, nor left behind."
Of course not...that is part of the same event. We are not talking about the DEAD...but the living...
"They will rise before the living are caught up to meet the Lord in the air!"
THAT...my FRiend...IS called THE RAPTURE. Caught Up=Harpazo=rapiemur=RAPTURE
BUT...once again...your lack of original thought is telling by quoting someone who doesn't understand the DIFFERENCE in the semantics of an event (which funny...the author of your piece ADMITS)...and the timing of the event. That is pretty ignorant.
"Paul’s point seems to be, immediately after the dead saints rise the living saints will join them to meet the Lord in the air."
AGAIN...this shows a LOT OF IGNORANCE...because THAT is what WE CALL THE RAPTURE. Now...even among us "HERETICS" there is disagreement on the timing. Some post-tribulations believers believe...as your "teacher" believes that this event IS THE SECOND COMING.
How hard is this to admit? You just posted an article that admits to the event...yet you won't say you agree or disagree.
You won't post an original thought or expound on your own belief about the scripture. You have to copy and paste. And the last article admits there is a rapture...at the same time saying there isn't one. Again...DO YOU CALL HIS NAME JESUS?
Did you even bother reading what I posted? Yes or No. Oh wait...guess you won't answer that question...I probably will get a copy/paste of someone else's thoughts.
And you post an article that calls premillennialism "heresy?" How ignorant of God's word ARE these people you are quoting. Do you not understand that when the APOSTLES called someone a heretic...and that when they accused someone of teaching heresy...they were really saying you are teaching something that brings about eternal damnation?
Do you understand that...or have you stopped reading by now and are off to copy/paste another article? Heresy is that which causes one to LOSE THEIR SALVATION. Are you saying that my belief IS heresy? Perhaps that IS why you are quoting Church of Christ authors...since there are many within the Church of Christ who believe they will be the only denomination there.
So...if you DO believe I am a heretic...our conversation is over. You will answer that question or this conversation IS over. IF not...then why are you quoting someone who is calling me one?
Thanks...and possibly...good day.
Now...the TIMING of the event is open for debate...and that is so non-essential its not funny. I believe it happens before Daniel's 70th Week (Daniel 9:24)...some believe it happens AFTER the 70th week at teh Second Coming. Some believe there is no 70th week and it happens before the millenial Kingdom. Some believe there is no MK and it happens before eternity.
But the bottom line...and we agree...IT DOES HAPPEN. Living Saints get swept skyward after the dead in Christ Rise...and according to 1 Cor 15...that is when mortality...both for the changed living believer and the resurrected dead believer puts on immortality.
I and others call that event "The Rapture" (we just put it at a different time on God's clock than you and others).
You asked me a biblical question, I answered it with scripture. If you don’t like the answer I posted, your quibble is not with me but God’s word.
You asked me a biblical question, I answered it with scripture. If you don’t like the answer I posted, your quibble is not with me but God’s word.
sorry bout the double post.
But there's wine:
Matthew 26:29 (New International Version, ©2011)
29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
If I die before any rapture takes place, which is equally likely, the personal effect to me is still the same.
My position as well. The important thing is to be ready.
Which part? The part that says only the Father will know the hour?
Why all the prognosticating?
And why, if people take the snatching from the fields stuff literally, do they not give all their money and goods to the poor as Jesus commands?
I’m asking these questions honestly, I am not attacking you.
I am not sure I have ever met ANYONE who...when you ask them POINT BLANK "WHAT DOES THIS SCRIPTURE MEAN TO YOU?"...they won't answer you plainly. Not until today at least. I have heard wrong answers...I don't know...I've heard it all...but this is a first.
and you didn't answer my last question either about heresy...
So...Have a good day.
You and I will have to agree to disagree. I answered your question with scripture. Whether or not you accept that answer is up to you.
As for ur question regarding heresy: I Tim 4:1 says: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils”
I Tim 4:1 says: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils”....
CONT-(2-5)"Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; [and what is it they are departing from? What is the doctrine of devils? What are the lies?] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
Yeah...sure sounds like the doctrine of the Rapture (rapiemur) to me...glad you cleared it up. Glad we can now...according to you...call everything heresy that falls outside our denominational belief. Guess that is the reason for the old joke:
An old man died and went to heaven...and St Peter was showing him around. He went by some great mansions...Martin Luther...there was a Pope...there was John Wesley's...Over there was Johnathon Edwards. To The left was Calvin's mansion. Before he got to his little mansion in Glory...he passed by a large closed stadium with a golden dome. There was beautiful a capella singing coming from the dome. The man asked St Peter: What is that building? St Peter Said: That's where the Church of Christ go. They don't know the rest of you are here...
Well I am not sure if I should be happy that I am still here. ...or sad that I missed it :)
Only one rapture to come. Only two times Jesus comes to earth. The first time when He died and rose to redeem us, and once again at the battle of Armageddon when He will defeat Satan’s forces and set up the thousand year reign on earth. The rapture is NOT a coming of Jesus because we go to meet Him in the air.
The straw dog of some who try to say there is not three comings of Jesus is just that, a straw dog. At the rapture He does NOT come to earth.
First of all, the word “rapture” is found in the Bible, if you have the Latin Vulgate produced by Jerome in the early 400s. The Vulgate was the main Bible of the medieval Western Church until the Reformation. It continues to this day as the primary Latin translation of the Roman Catholic Church. Yet, as we shall see later, it was Protestants who introduced the word “rapture” into the English language from the Latin raeptius. It was Jerome’s Vulgate that translated the original Greek verb harpazô used by Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is usually translated into English with the phrase “caught up.” The leading Greek Lexicon says that harpazô means “snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently.” This is the same meaning of the Latin word rapio “to seize, snatch, tear away.” It should not be surprising to anyone, that an English word was developed from the Latin which we use today known as “rapture.”
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/Rapture-myths.html
Israel is key to understanding. The May 21 thing does not mention Israel.
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