Posted on 02/06/2011 9:49:00 AM PST by Victor
Have the gunsmith clean the gun and inspect it.
Well worth the cost.
I think I can answer this one.
When I was a kid my dad and I would reload our own shotgun shells.12gauge dads and a 20 for me.
Dad found out how to make our own heavy load shot shells.
First a little more powder meausured in drams and when pushing the paper wad use more pressure on the wad against the powder. When shooting you could feel the difference between reloaded shells.
When comparing buckshot to #6 look on the boxes for the amount of powder in each shell it will be measured in drams.The Buckshot will have more.
It's been a long time since I have reloaded shot shells (35yrs) and would welcome any clarification.
That said, if yours was made in the 1930's as a poster above suggests, it is probably OK to shoot with regular shotgun shells. DO NOT shoot it with 3" shells. Shotguns have to have their chambers cut to fit 3" shells, and the ones that do are marked as such.
Be safe. Spend the money to take it to a good gunsmith and ask him to give you an opinion on it. Either that, or tie it to an old tire, load it, tie a string around the trigger, and hide behind a tree while pulling the trigger. That may be the end of your gun if it should not be fired with modern loads, however. I would take it to a 'smith.
Tijeras_Slim's advice is all good, even better than mine as it's more detailed.
My advice. If you think your eyes, face or life, is worth less than the cost of a modern gun, go ahead and use the old wall hanger. If not hang it over the fireplace, and go buy a modern gun. Be not the first by whom the new is tried, or the last to cast the old aside. 80 year old trade guns have served their time and should be retired.
A velocity of 1325 (fps)@ Muzzle would produce energy per pellet of 210 (fpe), 10 yds 180, 20 yds 155. Lead shot of course.
These ballistics taken from “Reloading For Shotgunners”
“Further more, make sure its not a Damascus barrel before you fire it all.”
You beat me to it, be very sure its not Damascus barrels.
Being a long gun user I guess that’s pretty hefty, right? And 20yds. would be the maximum range?
That is exactly what I bought; LE (law enforcement) low recoil 00 buckshot rounds. I intend to use it for home defense.
The problem with Damascus was not the strength of the welded steel barrel; the problem was the ammo and lack of proper cleaning. Black powder is a mix made from charcoal, sulfur, salt peter. Any salt that's left behind will cause rust on steel if not cleaned out. Also, the fulminate of mercury used in black powder shells was also corrosive. The salts left behind actually penetrated in between the butt welds of the steel strips forming the Damascus barrel. For the most part, this rust damage was NOT visible to the shooter and continued unabated until the barrel failed after it had been weakened by rust.
Smokeless powder loadings also produce problems for Damascus guns because the same rounds with smokeless powder cause higher pressures that can lead to barrel failure. Also, until the 1940s, smokeless shot shells used corrosive primers. Though the powder wasn't corrosive, the primers were and so the rusting problem of the Damascus barrel from the inside out was continued.
If your shotgun has a Damascus barrel, take it to a competent gunsmith for inspection. There are several nondestructive tests that can determine if the barrel is damaged internally by rust. If you're concerned about a standard 2-3/4 inch loaded shotshell in this gun, perhaps a 1-3/4 Aguila mini-shotshell would work. the minis have less pressure than the standard and ought to be safe in a Damascus barrel, However, this is all dependent on what your gunsmith says.
Is it heavier than 1 1/8 oz of feathers too? ;-)
Thanks for that info. Much appreciated.
Shotgun ballistics are funny, and it took me a while to get my head around them. Speed is not so vital as nominal charge weight. Usually the speed for shot is approximately 1200 FPS no matter the weight, thus you need heavier powder charges (dram equivalent) for heavier charges. The dram equivalent necessary to propel say 1 ounce is the same regardless of the size of pellet (of course once in air, differing size pellets will behave differently, buckshot will carry quite a distance, # 12 only 100 or so feet).
The high speed shells (usually above 1350 FPS) are almost always steel, which requires higher velocities to have the same terminal effects as lead. Given that most birds are taken under 50 yards (never mind Elmer Keith and his claims of geese blown out of the sky at 90 to 100), we have a very limited window of velocity needed depending on shot material.
At 25 yards, there is no difference in velocity and (given the same choke or constriction) pattern size between a .410 and a 12 gauge. The main difference is in pattern density, with # 9 shot having 658 in 1 1/8th ounce and a .410 having 292 in 1/2 ounce.
Thank you for the kind words, Hardastarboard.
Thanks very much for the information. I don’t load shot shells, rather I do rifle and pistol cartridges.
I used to reload pistol, shotgun is a whole other world.
As with rifles you look for a load that your gun likes, which in shotgun terms is shoots to point of aim (if your gun is fitted correctly - very important) and patterns consistently at the range you usually break the target. A hot loading can actually blow a pattern up, and at 20 to 30 yards 1300 FPS gives you no advantage over 1150. Plus, the harder you drive a charge, the higher the recoil. Over a weekend tournament of 500-600 birds, it adds up. So you get a basic load, pattern it, and if good, you lock down the press and go for it.
Very effective as long as you always shoot the dirtbag in the face.
Regards,
Raven6
Amen. Thank you, sir, for all the good advice.
What about a 45 with hollow points? I know not to gut shoot,it would be the same deal.
Well, here is my opinion... Some will agree, more will probably disagree...
In my experience, the marksmanship ability of the shooter is much more important than the round he is carrying (as long as the round is truely intended as a self defense round to start with.) In those FBI gelatin tests that were run several years ago, all of the "major" rounds were tested... 9mm, .357 magnum, 357 Sig, .40S&W, .45ACP... The purpose of shooting into ballistic gelatin is to see how much of the original bullet weight is retained, how much of a temporary wound cavity is created, how much of a permanent wound cavity is created, and how far a round penetrates. This is not to say that ballistic gelatin is identical to the human body as far as gelatin versus tissue. It does, however, allow for observation and comparison of different rounds and loads. Now, having said all of this, let me tell you what I saw in the results: The temporary wound channels, the permanent wound channels (key, since this is the one that "let's the blood out"), and the penetration of the bullets were all very, very similar... So much so that it becomes apparent that the placement of the shot is more of a deciding factor than is the caliber of the round. Now, there are folks that will read this and shake their heads in disbelief that someone would dare say that these different rounds are causing comparable damage, but it is what I have seen documented in photographs and what I have personally seen in actual autopsies. In my opinion, the whole 9mm versus .40S&W versus .45ACP argument is like Ford versus Chevy versus Dodge (versus Toyota!?!) in NASCAR... It is not the label on the car or the displacement of the engine (they have to be the same, remember?) - it is the skill of the driver and crew, as well as where they happen to be on the track when unfortunate events happen.
The big .45 ACP rounds, at a bullet weight of 230 grains are moving relatively slowly when compared to the fast moving, lighter weight 9mm and .357 rounds. The .40S&W will fall somewhere in between. But when it comes to the delivery, the big .45 ACP round travels just as about as deeply (remember, I said similar, not exactly) into the gelatin or tissue as the fast movers because it has more mass. I often use the analogy of stopping a big Cadillac limo traveling at 80mph versus a Porshe 911 Carrera Turbo traveling at 140mph... It takes as long as or maybe even longer to stop the big car than it does the smaller one due to the mass involved. Same thing with bullet weights, if bullet designs are the same (hollow-points versus hollow-points.) SO... We end up with similar penetration.
The wound channels end up being fairly the same because, even though different ammo manufacturers claim to have "the best" bullet design, the end results just aren't that far apart between one hollow point design and the next.
So what does that leave us? Shot placement... That is why my tagline is what it is... I'm not a great guitar player at all, but putting expensive strings on my existing guitar, or even running up to Gruen Guitars up in Nashville and buying an expensive Martin M22 or a Les Paul guitar won't help me play any better. It comes down to practice and the skill acquired through that practice. Shooting is the same thing. I would rather have a great marksman with a $300 pistol chambered in .380ACP beside me than an unskilled person with a $2,500 custom .45 ACP.
Now, specifically to your question about the .45ACP with hollow points. Always go for the shot that will end the fight the quickest... Whether that shot is going to be a CNS (central nervous system) shot, or a atrium/vessels shot would depend upon your position versus bad guy's position, what lies beyond the bad guy (what if you miss or the shot goes all the way through him? Don't want to hit an innocent, right?) Sometimes, the only shot you have is a good CNS shot... Sometimes movement on part of him/you/both of you may only allow for a atrium/vessels shot because they are still more easily hit than a truly effective CNS shot. Personally, I have more of leaning toward a CNS shot if I think I can get it. It is more time effective when you most need things to end quickly...
You may notice that I keep referring to a CNS shot or an Atrium/vessels shot... That is because this is the mindset we truly need to have. It is not enough to think "shoot him in the chest" or "shoot him in the head"... You have to hit the vital parts contained within the chest or within the cranium. This is just a different way of expressing the old "aim small, miss small" quote from "The Patriot", but it does hold true. One should train hisself not to look at the bad guy and see "his chest" or "his head", but should instead train to see "there is his heart" and "there is his brain stem". That is what we need to hit. You have to learn to think 3 dimensionally and to understand just exactly where our targets are located within the bad guy's body, no matter what angle it might be from which we are viewing him. I practice this mentally in restaurants while waiting for our food to arrive... To most, I'm just watching people go by. But in reality, it is me saying to myself "Right there is where I would need to hit." No... I'm not psychotic... It is just a way of honing a skill. When I say in my profile that I teach "surgical speed shooting" that is exactly what I mean. You have to know where to place the shot and you have to do it in a hurry because lives are at stake...
As a closing paragraph to the rather long-winded post (for which I do apologise), I would be remiss if I didn't bring up one more ballistic topic: Bullet Voodoo... Yep, bullet voodoo. If you study as many shootings and the effects of bullets upon the human body as I have, you will see things that seem unexplainable. Weird things like bullets that should have quite obviously entered the skull but instead deflected and ran around the cranium between the skull bone and the outer layer of the skin/scalp - I laughingly call that one the "sub-dural circumnavigation of the cranium"... And it happens. Bullets that are deflected while traveling through the body by what could only be called "extremely tensed muscle tissue" are more common than one would think: You see a wound channel that changes course without having struck bone. You will just see extremely bruised muscle tissue that caused the bullet to change course. Just really weird stuff... Bullet Voodoo!
Oh well, I hope some of this helps ease the anguish that some have about the caliber they carry, and I hope it helps motivate more people to get to the range and to hone their shooting skills!
Regards,
Raven6
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