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To: painter
"What about a 45 with hollow points? I know not to gut shoot,it would be the same deal." - painter

Well, here is my opinion... Some will agree, more will probably disagree...

In my experience, the marksmanship ability of the shooter is much more important than the round he is carrying (as long as the round is truely intended as a self defense round to start with.) In those FBI gelatin tests that were run several years ago, all of the "major" rounds were tested... 9mm, .357 magnum, 357 Sig, .40S&W, .45ACP... The purpose of shooting into ballistic gelatin is to see how much of the original bullet weight is retained, how much of a temporary wound cavity is created, how much of a permanent wound cavity is created, and how far a round penetrates. This is not to say that ballistic gelatin is identical to the human body as far as gelatin versus tissue. It does, however, allow for observation and comparison of different rounds and loads. Now, having said all of this, let me tell you what I saw in the results: The temporary wound channels, the permanent wound channels (key, since this is the one that "let's the blood out"), and the penetration of the bullets were all very, very similar... So much so that it becomes apparent that the placement of the shot is more of a deciding factor than is the caliber of the round. Now, there are folks that will read this and shake their heads in disbelief that someone would dare say that these different rounds are causing comparable damage, but it is what I have seen documented in photographs and what I have personally seen in actual autopsies. In my opinion, the whole 9mm versus .40S&W versus .45ACP argument is like Ford versus Chevy versus Dodge (versus Toyota!?!) in NASCAR... It is not the label on the car or the displacement of the engine (they have to be the same, remember?) - it is the skill of the driver and crew, as well as where they happen to be on the track when unfortunate events happen.

The big .45 ACP rounds, at a bullet weight of 230 grains are moving relatively slowly when compared to the fast moving, lighter weight 9mm and .357 rounds. The .40S&W will fall somewhere in between. But when it comes to the delivery, the big .45 ACP round travels just as about as deeply (remember, I said similar, not exactly) into the gelatin or tissue as the fast movers because it has more mass. I often use the analogy of stopping a big Cadillac limo traveling at 80mph versus a Porshe 911 Carrera Turbo traveling at 140mph... It takes as long as or maybe even longer to stop the big car than it does the smaller one due to the mass involved. Same thing with bullet weights, if bullet designs are the same (hollow-points versus hollow-points.) SO... We end up with similar penetration.

The wound channels end up being fairly the same because, even though different ammo manufacturers claim to have "the best" bullet design, the end results just aren't that far apart between one hollow point design and the next.

So what does that leave us? Shot placement... That is why my tagline is what it is... I'm not a great guitar player at all, but putting expensive strings on my existing guitar, or even running up to Gruen Guitars up in Nashville and buying an expensive Martin M22 or a Les Paul guitar won't help me play any better. It comes down to practice and the skill acquired through that practice. Shooting is the same thing. I would rather have a great marksman with a $300 pistol chambered in .380ACP beside me than an unskilled person with a $2,500 custom .45 ACP.

Now, specifically to your question about the .45ACP with hollow points. Always go for the shot that will end the fight the quickest... Whether that shot is going to be a CNS (central nervous system) shot, or a atrium/vessels shot would depend upon your position versus bad guy's position, what lies beyond the bad guy (what if you miss or the shot goes all the way through him? Don't want to hit an innocent, right?) Sometimes, the only shot you have is a good CNS shot... Sometimes movement on part of him/you/both of you may only allow for a atrium/vessels shot because they are still more easily hit than a truly effective CNS shot. Personally, I have more of leaning toward a CNS shot if I think I can get it. It is more time effective when you most need things to end quickly...

You may notice that I keep referring to a CNS shot or an Atrium/vessels shot... That is because this is the mindset we truly need to have. It is not enough to think "shoot him in the chest" or "shoot him in the head"... You have to hit the vital parts contained within the chest or within the cranium. This is just a different way of expressing the old "aim small, miss small" quote from "The Patriot", but it does hold true. One should train hisself not to look at the bad guy and see "his chest" or "his head", but should instead train to see "there is his heart" and "there is his brain stem". That is what we need to hit. You have to learn to think 3 dimensionally and to understand just exactly where our targets are located within the bad guy's body, no matter what angle it might be from which we are viewing him. I practice this mentally in restaurants while waiting for our food to arrive... To most, I'm just watching people go by. But in reality, it is me saying to myself "Right there is where I would need to hit." No... I'm not psychotic... It is just a way of honing a skill. When I say in my profile that I teach "surgical speed shooting" that is exactly what I mean. You have to know where to place the shot and you have to do it in a hurry because lives are at stake...

As a closing paragraph to the rather long-winded post (for which I do apologise), I would be remiss if I didn't bring up one more ballistic topic: Bullet Voodoo... Yep, bullet voodoo. If you study as many shootings and the effects of bullets upon the human body as I have, you will see things that seem unexplainable. Weird things like bullets that should have quite obviously entered the skull but instead deflected and ran around the cranium between the skull bone and the outer layer of the skin/scalp - I laughingly call that one the "sub-dural circumnavigation of the cranium"... And it happens. Bullets that are deflected while traveling through the body by what could only be called "extremely tensed muscle tissue" are more common than one would think: You see a wound channel that changes course without having struck bone. You will just see extremely bruised muscle tissue that caused the bullet to change course. Just really weird stuff... Bullet Voodoo!

Oh well, I hope some of this helps ease the anguish that some have about the caliber they carry, and I hope it helps motivate more people to get to the range and to hone their shooting skills!

Regards,
Raven6

60 posted on 02/07/2011 6:42:08 PM PST by Raven6 (The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.)
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To: Raven6
Thanks for your time writing your response.It is something all the gun owners here should read.Actually you should start a thread with this.

I did not buy a 45 because I wanted a "big" hand gun. For years I had a fascination with 1911 45 auto,and shot several different brands during that time. A couple years ago I got the chance to buy one. It's a Colt knockoff, but it shoots good and a hell of lot of fun to shoot.

Sometime back I bought a supply of hollow points from Georgia Arms.I shot a metal gallon can full of water.45 going in and 90plus coming out. Big nasty hole coming out.

62 posted on 02/08/2011 8:45:49 AM PST by painter (No wonder democrats don't mind taxes.THEY DON'T PAY THEM !)
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