Need help refuting some communist talking points

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[mainestategop]

So Im in the middel of a debate between a group of left wing commies Very hard core I might add. The debate was touched off after a friend of mine from California who was a homeschooling mother of 3 kids came under attack by the commies. It was started off by an evil woman named vampiressontheprowlq who is known for calling freedom a form of fascism and advocating the destruction of America on youtube with her girlfriend and lover.

Here are some excerpts of the filth I have recieved...

Ray Bradbury wrote "Fahrenheit 451", from fresh thoughts in his mind's eye, just after the horrors of WWII, as a commentary on Nazi Germany's Far Right Conservative "Free Market Fascist" Anti-Democratic Authoritarian Nationalist Militaristic privatized society, its sadistic Inequality & Social Darwinist "Survival of the Fittest"--Healthiest/Strongest­­­/­Wealthy Successful Producers" rewarded for Business Profiteering from suffering in Nazi Germany's privatized, Deregulated Market Oppression of Labor Unions, Ethnic Minorities, Immigrants, Leftists/Socialists & Intellectuals (who love books), Civil Rights/Liberties, Free Speech & Free Expression.

"Fahrenheit 451" was NOT a commentary on Big Govt Welfare NWO "Big Brother" "Political Correctness" Tyranny or Totalitarian USSR.

Bradbury even confirms what i say, in the foreword of his book & several interviews!

. . . the Soviet Union did not ever burn books. only Nazi regime burned books in Europe in the 20th century (and Conservative Traditional-Culture rural Christian extremists, Southern Racist Rednecks, Slave-owning Plantation Landowners in 1600s-1900s America, Europe 11-14th centuries & Crusades burned books)

but only Nazis in 20th century.

. . . Soviet Union did not ever burn books.

. . . nor did Eastern Bloc Socialist countries during the Cold War.

. . . nor has S. Amer. or European Democratic Leftist "Socialist" country ever burned books.

VampiressOnDaProwlq 1 week ago

This was followed by a rebuttal then an attack by a friend of hers who is known to be an anti american activist and marxist.

As has been repeated to you here already, the Soviets may have censored material but they were not the burners of books. And then you just went off on some meaningless slander. If you're home schooling, you should be arrested for child abuse. As is typical, homeschooling usually just means that the unqualified and ignorant are creating more of the same, it's so sad, your children disserve a REAL education from people who actually know what they are talking about. Stalin, He was certainly no angel and was responsible for the purges of the military and party, but to try an allege that he killed more than Hitler is a bad joke. All you can do is try and use bad numbers and natural events beyond the control of the gov't and then you must still also inflate the numbers. If the same accounting methods are used to examine capitalism that are used to try and indict Stalin than capitalism itself comes out the bigger killer Postwar demographics alone make nonsense of the claim. Eastern Europe was no more enslaved than Latin America in the same period under US-style anti-communism. If anything soviet style socialism was far less bloody than those American nations unfortunate enough to be in the US cold war sphere. As to low wages in China I know of no Asian regime that pays its workers a living wage. Sweeping generalizations are so easy to make, like macaroni and cheese from a box. Just add water. Right, mom? What a joke, there had ALWAYS been great famines in Russia even before it was communist. The market cannot address famines because the people in the famine regions lack the resources to acquire food from any sort of market. The 'Market' doesn't matter in such cases. And socialists do not deny that there was a famine in the Ukraine but like many historians we can look beyond the foolish propaganda of the Rightists trying to blame it all on socialism. would just like to point out that I and a number of other scholars have shown conclusively that the famine of 1931-1933 was by no means limited to Ukraine, was not a "man-made" or artificial famine in the sense that she and other devotees of the Ukrainian famine argument assert, and was not a genocide in any conventional sense of the term Mark B. Tauger, "The 1932 Harvest and the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933," Slavic Review v. 50 no. 1, Spring 1991, 70-89, and my exchanges of letters with Robert Conquest over this article, Slavic Review v. 51 no. 1, 192-194 and v. 53 no. 1, 318-319.

Mark B. Tauger, Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933, Carl Beck Papers in Russian and East European Studies, no. 1506, June 2001

Libertarians believe that the only rights that really matters are property rights, that inviolate private property is the only true measure of freedom. And so if you don't have any, too bad, let them find somebody else's property to complain on. They require perfection as the only applicable standard to judge government: libertarianism, being imaginary, cannot be fairly judged to have flaws. It is the philosophy that has and is underlying the elitist dictatorships around the world You know nothing about history. The private sector only sees to its own not the needs of the people in general. It has been barred out that laissez faire only increases the gap between the Rich and the poor. That was the case before the depression of '29. By 1929, the richest 1 percent will own 40 percent of the nation's wealth. The bottom 93 percent will have experienced a 4 percent drop in real disposable per-capita income And so it has become similar thanks to the 'free-market' crap pushed on us since Reagan and Greenspan's libertarian fantasies. And property is NOT freedom. Libertarians foolishly only think that property rights bring freedom, buts it's just too bad if you can't get any property and are therefore enslaved to those that can afford property. It is a philosophy of greed A 'free-market' 'small gov't' state is a corporate fascist state where the corporations can do what they wish because there is no governmental power to restrain them. Filling the power vacuum left by eviscerated gov't they become the gov't. Libertarianism is fascist Social Darwinist rule of money, those with the most money can do whatever they wish while the working people suffer without assistance victimized by a market they cannot control Libertarians are nazis. Communist countries have seen the greatest and fastest growth in their standard of living. Communism brought Russia out of a backward existence and made it a world power in little more than a generation. And in the Soviet Union that did not know poverty we now see it explode and the life expectancy drastically decline.

really then could you inform us how you would allow books you disagree with to be printed and how would you maintain your power if your ideology became the 'rule of law". Capitalism is about Greed and the Nazis loved capitalists.Volkswagen would not have existed without them. Capitalism is an evil disgusting beast that if it cannot be killed at least it should be chained so that it's most evil aspects are stopped.You are one sick perverted individual but typical of your kind

This continued on an on and then they demanded I quote from books by scholars which is what brings me here. I need some good literary works and material to fight back against this socialist dog crap online preferably. Also feel free to join in if you have a youtube account.

[The Comedian]

In this case, you'd be better off bypassing the factual arguments, which obviously will not have an impact on these nutjobs, and simply ridicule these people. I mean it. Alinsky had that part right. You could go back and forth with these nutballs until Judgment Day, but they will simply ignore any facts you cite, or lie outright to refute them. It is a waste of time. However, if you denigrate and ridicule them, it gets them where they live. Leftists, above all else, need to feel superior. They need to feel like they are the smartest people in the world. Ridicule is the one thing they cannot tolerate. Debating them only feeds their egos. Ridicule deflates them.

My Raison d'être.

Nicely put, and I couldn't agree more.

Everyone needs to realize this and apply it universally.

Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

[Mayr Fortuna]

Well, let me see if I can help, even if it is a little. You know, this is such a gather of extremists BSs that we ought to refute line by line, and I do not have the patience to do it. First of all: Ray Bradbury wrote “Fahrenheit 451”, from fresh thoughts in his mind's eye, just after the horrors of WWII; Yes, but Bradburry was never known exactly for being a Philosopher. It has been a common technique of the left to alienate the Nazis. Nazi Germany was National Socialism, and everybody honest enough to account history, will tell you that Stalin and Adolf where close friends until Adolf decided he needed another “great victory” to keep his power. Stalin funded and enforced the German rearmament under Hitler, and even provided place and industries for it in URSS soil because Germany was forbidden to have Hardware Industries by Versailles Treaty. The Soviet where only able to counter Germany invasion with the direct help of USA and England Money.
As for burning books, there where no need for it in Soviet Union, at least not for the “authorities”, for the people, the peasants knew if they where to be caught with some kind of books, they would be send to the Gulags in a one way journey ASAP, being the result of this “politic” that they, themselves carried the book burning.

[Twinkie]

“Do you really think your time is worth listening or debating this bone headed drivel?”

I agree. This bunch clearly has WAY too much time on their hands to rant and rave, are obviously self-congratulating lounge lizards and can write rants quoting supposed “statistics” until the cows come home. There’s no way you can read a dozen or so “Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire” type books trying to stay in ahead of their drivel. Oh, you could spend years trying, but common sense is not the rabid communist’s forte. At the end of it, you come away exhausted and they still believe the same things. Relax and enjoy yourself, be happy, smile, it makes them wonder what you’re up to. :o)

[denydenydeny]

Liberals love to cling to minor details like religious fetishes. The whole “only the Nazis burned books” meme is completely idiotic, since

A) It is essentially meaningless if the Soviets only “censored” books while the Nazis “burned” them. There’s no qualitative difference between burning, pulping, dumping, cutting up, or burying a book in a landfill.

B) What does this idiot think happened to the works of Trotsky, which were printed in editions of hundreds of thousands in the 1920s? And, yes, Solzhenitsyn records many public instances of Soviet book=burning, many of them PREDATING the Nazis.

[PATRIOT1876]

*The Nazis were not a product of the Right, but rather, the Left. They also espoused vegetarianism, many of the things commonly thought of as talking points of the Left these days. Suggest she read Liberal Fascism. Great book. The Soviets murdered literally by the millions, by starvation, execution, many other ways. Suggest that the silly commie woman read The Gulag Archipelago. The Communist Chinese likewise murder with utter disregard. Only societies that value freedom and human life avoid that sort of thing. It sounds like the woman in question needs to be dropped like a hot rock. Not your homeschooling friend, but the so-called vamp with poor grammar.*

It gets me that the knuckleheaded Left think that the Nazis were on the Right! Don't they notice the word Socialist in the National Socialist Party? They missed the fact that the red in the Nazi flag is red as a tip of the hat to their Communist brothers.

These “wymyn” have the hubris of Bill Maher and the logic of the crazy man that screams at people in red cars all day long.

“Hey, red car guy, where’d ya git the red car?”

I debate ones like them that are a little less clever on AnswerBag. It's good to let them know that not everyone agrees with them—those exposed to the lamestream media and Maoist professors may think that Liberal Derangement in normal thinking.

My suggestion, get a jab in here and there for people on the fence reading the post to see. Back it up with facts, as you are trying to do, and only answer meatheads (dead from the neck up) once or twice and then forget about them until the next comment.

Ones like that cannot be convinced. They have sold their souls to the devil in exchange for a feeling of superiority via psuedointellectualism.

Their insane demented position is unfalsifiable to them.

[PATRIOT1876]

*“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It just wastes your time and it really annoys the pig.”

Here’s a closer that often works for me:

Dear_______,
I feel compelled to inform you that a patient at the Bethesda Home for the Perpetually Bewildered Progressives has apparently missed a thorizine shot and broken into Nurse Ratchet’s office, hacked into her computer and is sending totally bizarre, nonsensical, historically inaccurate, fiction-laced emails over your name.

I just thought you should know before your reputation is completely ruined.

Even if it doesn’t make them go away, it sure as hell makes me feel better.*

That’s a good ne to use on the non-FReeper sites.
It should be on the opening page of HuffingtonPost and moveon.crud

[PATRIOT1876]

*The National Socialist Workers Party of Germany, otherwise known as the Nazi Party, was indeed socialist, and it had a lot in common with the modern left. Hitler preached class warfare, agitating the working class to resist “exploitation” by capitalists — particularly Jewish capitalists, of course. Their program called for the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, and other major industries. They instituted and vigorously enforced a strict gun control regimen. They encouraged pornography, illegitimacy, and abortion, and they denounced Christians as right-wing fanatics.

Yet a popular myth persists that the Nazis themselves were right-wing extremists. This insidious lie biases the entire political landscape, and the time has come to expose it.*

They like to think of the Communists as the “good” side of totalitarianism. They conveniently ignore the 100 million or so killed under communism because they disagreed with their freedom-killing dogma

[dimk]

Fahrenheit ? who cares

Soviets burned book and anything else they wanted. Send them a free copy of Solzhenytzin’s Archipelag Gulag.

Ukraine in it’s history never had a famine.. that is right. In hundreds of years and innumerable wars no famines. Why? Because you can stick a stick in the soil there and it will grow with no effort. There are no real droughts or other climatological events that cause it. Soviets take power and you have a famine.. Stalin created it, it is as simple as that.

[exDemMom]

As far as I’m concerned, there is only one reason to debate a far-left lunatic. That’s if the debate occurs on a public forum, in which case debate would signal to the lurkers that there are actually reasoned arguments refuting whatever it is the loony leftist said. The idea being that the lurkers might not be very informed on the subject, and you need to make them aware of the rational point of view.

The best way to engage in such a debate is to pick ONE fallacy out of their rant (usually the whole rant consists of fallacies built upon fallacies) and to thoroughly debunk it. They’ll usually come back with pointing out another of their fallacies—”Well, what about ___? HMMM?”—as if they’re making some sort of great point. You then proceed to debunk that fallacy. Don’t try to tackle every single fallacy—you can’t. The only goal is to make them realize that no matter what lie they say, you can refute it—and this is often enough to make them go away.

You will never convince them to accept the truth. In some cases, they’re mentally ill; in others, they’re full of bitterness and self-loathing. Whatever the root of their leftism, they will not let go of it.

[PATRIOT1876]

*You can't fix something that is *that* broken.
It needs to be reduced into component elements, the elements crushed into dust, and the dust recycled.*

This is possibly the first time that I disagree with you.

The debris from such ilk is much too toxic to be recycled. I wouldn't want anything made from their dust. The insanity may leak out. The isotopes will take centuries before the bad ju jube dies out from them, even if pulverized with an atom smasher.

I say the dust needs to be sent in to outer-space so that it orbits a sun far from ours.

;-)

[PGR88]

Who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool who argues with him?

[aquila48]

USSR!

[The Comedian]

The problem is, you face the risk of catastrophic launch vehicle failure in the boost phase, sending the payload spinning back to earth where it could land on human children or cute animals. And that is a risk too great to take...

Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

[verity]

It must be really cold and lonely up there.

[scrabblehack]

The Soviets used the swastika before the Nazis, in 1917.

http://rexcurry.net/ussr-socialist-swastika-cccp-sssr.html

[PATRIOT1876]

*And that is a risk too great to take... *

True. We must figure out a way to destroy even the sub-atomic particles without causing an explosion and seal them away where the nuclear waste is stored.

A sign on the door will read, “Please do not open for 10,000 years”

[Ouderkirk]

Gulag Archipelago says it all.

[mjp]

who is known for calling freedom a form of fascism

Just tell them that it is ridiculous contradictions like this that proves the utter intellectual disintegration that they have sunk to.

[denydenydeny]

known for calling freedom a form of fascism

Obviously a student of "deconstruction", the academic belief that everything means exactly the opposite of what it plainly says, except for communist propaganda which is accepted at complete face value.

[SaraJohnson]

Do as the communists would do and delete all their comments.