The Critics Are Losing the Apple Price Argument

Tech Night Owl ^ | October 29th, 2010

[Swordmaker]

On this week’s episode of The Tech Night Owl LIVE, we talk with Laptop magazine’s Avram Piltch about Apple’s spanking new MacBook Air. Along with reports that the product may already be flying off the shelves, particularly the 11.6-inch version, the early reviews are nothing short of spectacular.

Piltch, who is certainly no ardent fan of Apple, has high praise for this revision of this sexy thin and light notebook, and it’s not just the performance factor. You see, compared to other notebooks that use solid state storage, the Air is actually priced competitively. It may even be cheaper than some of the generic PC alternatives, simply because Apple is able to get the best price on flash memory.

With a base price of $999, the entry-level MacBook Air may not be the cheapest notebook on the planet, but the designs that come closest cost even more.

Now take a look at the promised iPad killers that are slowly coming to market. Some companies are tying them in to two-year data plans with wireless carriers to make them seem less expensive, but soon as you add up the price of admission — particularly in the months where Wi-Fi access is sufficient for you — you’ll find that the iPad is a much better deal.

Worse, without a 3G plan, such products as the Samsung Galaxy Tab, with a 7-inch display, may be priced at the same level or higher than the cheapest 9.7-inch iPad. Go figure!

Add to that the fact that Apple’s latest SEC filing warns of somewhat lower profit margins — still high compared to most of the consumer electronics industry — and that typically conservative outlook has spooked Wall Street and stalled the meteoric rise in the company’s stock price.

But remember that Apple never releases a product that fails to deliver great profits to the company, even if it’s a few percentage points less than some might hope. What that means is that Apple is going to be far more aggressive about pricing, not to mention the need to cover R&D for new product releases. In the end, as much as Apple is regarded as the BMW of the tech business, you can’t call their prices high compared to identically-equipped competitors.

So, yes, you can buy a big screen Windows notebook for $700. But now load it up with essentially the same options that Apple provides as standard issue, including a superior LCD display with higher resolution, and suddenly the Mac doesn’t seem so expensive.

When you move to the high end of the equation, the Mac Pro has almost always been priced similar to, or lower than, competing workstations from Dell and other top-tier PC box assemblers.

Yes, there are loads of PC boxes out there that are much cheaper than a Mac, and businesses may not particularly prefer to buy computers equipped with Wi-Fi, digital lifestyle apps, not to mention a Web cam. None of those features may be suited to an office environment, yet all of Apple’s notebooks, along with the iMac, have them. It makes them more expensive to build, and the price of admission is higher, but Apple sharply limits customization. You can’t, for example, buy ten thousand copies without these and other features, and that is often a reason why businesses won’t choose Apple.

I wonder how things might change with Apple’s new enterprise push, and their deal with Unisys to mine the corporate and government markets. Certainly Apple is taking business customers seriously, but it doesn’t appear they’re going to sacrifice product design or customization to get there.

When it comes to the iPhone, pretty much any competing smartphone using the Android OS, RIM, or Windows Phone 7 OS, will have a similar subsidized price. There may be times when a carrier will cut prices to move product, such as those two-for-one deals at Verizon Wireless. But since Verizon didn’t grow its postpaid subscription roster as much as they hoped in the last quarter, the days may be numbered for such product giveaways.

You can rest assured that there won’t be any two-for-one deals if and when the iPhone joins Verizon’s product list. Apple wouldn’t accept such a marketing scheme for a moment, and Verizon clearly would have to cede major levels of control to get an iPhone to sell. That the iPad is already available almost certainly cements the likelihood such a deal is already in place.

In any case, the next time someone tells you that Apple’s gear is way overpriced, remind them of the iPad, iPhone and iPod. At $49 for an iPod shuffle, you can’t call it costly, nor can you say anything of the sort about the $499 iPad. Indeed, that trendsetting product is priced far more cheaply than pretty much any alleged analyst expected when it was introduced earlier this year.

The version 2.0 iPad will likely be priced the same, since there appears to be no incentive for Apple to drop the price. At the same time, it’ll have more features; consider the presence of a camera almost a lock.

But Apple did reduce the price of the MacBook Air, and that decision has made it tremendously — surprisingly — competitive, even against cheap PC gear.

[ReignOfError]

Honda Accord is good enough.

There's a ringing endorsement. Are you in advertising?

[dennisw]

You mean the kind that Limbaugh posts about from his Macs?

He has some super duper Mac beasts that he laid out thousands for. I'll bet that all he really uses them for is internet stuff and email. He has peons who do the photoshop stuff for him. I have never heard him talk about anything interesting he does with them. A few years ago he was complaining because the "Time Machine" program wasn't working and he could not get anyone to get it running right.

He talks about his iphones and ipad but he should have bought an android

[word_warrior_bob]

I thought Jim told Puget to stay the hell off the mac threads, he even made his own threads about macs because he wasn’t supposed to be on these.

It seems he’s starting his pattern AGAIN, lay low for a little while and when he feels the heats off start a-trollin’ again.

How many more times do we have to do this?

[LearnsFromMistakes]

I have purchased ‘display-model’ laptops, owned toshiba, hp, compaq, e machines and dells, even a packard bell a long while ago. All of them the absolute best deal I could find. And I plan on continuing to buy the best value I can find. Been struggling since my home development box (Dell) quit on me. Don’t want to spend the extra money on a Mac - since I don’t need the very nice iLife suite on this box. But I haven’t been able to pull the trigger on a win box... (I see the back/forth with others. Trying to stay out of that, just being honest about my situation.)

[dangerdoc]

Check dealnews.com regularly. If you want a Mac, they advertise any price breaks available. If you want a PC, they have some really good deals pretty frequently.

Basically they do the surfing for you.

[GOPJ]

I bought an ipod last week - had a few problems - and talked to the Apple support people. Oh My God, they were wonderful. Everything’s fixed ... before it was over I was ready to invite them over for Thanksgiving and Christmas - they were even kind about my Vista system that was causing the problems... I’m reluctantly becoming a fan...

[Crusher138]

Most of those people who claim that they can get a “comparable” computer to a Mac for less have never used a recent Apple product for any period of time.

Those of us who use both regularly know the truth.

[Crusher138]

Have you used a Mac for an extended period of time recently?

[Crusher138]

Have you used a Mac for an extended period of time recently?

[LearnsFromMistakes]

We have 2 MacBooks and an iMac at home(they each had their own dells before I got MacBooks). We homeschool, and I think it is important that my kids be good with computers. My wife & kids are the primary users, but I enjoy their work - for example actually using our photos and videos to make movies.

I am a java developer, so I can certainly get by with a cheap box. But really considering a mini with os x server. I think that would be fun.

[Swordmaker]

Oh, and if you'd actually check out Anandtech you'd find you are completely and unequivocally wrong. Anandtech HAS checked out the new Macbook Air and the battery lasts 2.5 to 4 hours.

WOW! again. You are really something.

First, my apologies. I did a Google search and Anandtech's review of the 2010 MacBook Airs did not come up. My bad.

However, that apology out of the way, my criticism of your post stands. You based it on the original review, and you distorted the conclusions, and falsely implied those were normal usage results. Now you claim the 2010 MacBook Airs last only 2.5 to 4 hours (and even there, you round down!) and AGAIN want the reader to infer that is under normal usage, when it is nothing even close to the truth! AGAIN, you took the worst case, artificial stressed testing that does not at all represent the kind of use anyone would select this class of machine for, and present the resulting battery life as typical. I call FUD!

Puget, you distort and misrepresent. Obviously you must be doing it deliberately, because the facts are quite plain on Anandtech! Anyone reading that article without your distorted anti-Apple bias would not come away with the idea the battery life of these two notebooks was 2.5 to 4 hours... That last number is not even one that is mentioned. . . Or close. The closest one I found was 4.82 hours (309 minutes/60 minutes).,

The figures are not what you claim except under extremely unlikely artificial conditions including the simultaneous multiple (three windows) repeated deliberate visits to heavy Flash animation pages, downloading large files to the drive, and playing an XviD Movie... Not your average usage for a notebook user. let's look and see what Anandtech REALY reported instead of your distortions!

Anandtech real conclusions about the 2010 MacBook Airs' battery life

 

As glorified typewriters, you can’t beat the battery life offered by the MacBook Air. Light web browsing, document creation and music playback have minimal impact on the Air’s battery life. In fact, we actually beat Apple’s battery life claims in our light tests. The 11-inch Air delivers nearly 7 hours on a single charge and the 13-inch managed 11.2 hours. For a writer, you can’t do better than this.

Flash Web Browsing

The test here has three Safari windows open, each browsing a set of web pages with between 1 - 4 animated flash ads per page, at the same time. Each page forwards onto the next after about 20 seconds.

As always, the display is set to 50% brightness, audio at two bars, screensaver disabled and the hard drive is allowed to go to sleep if idle. The wireless connection is enabled and connected to a local access point less than 20 feet away.

If you use the MacBook Air as a full function P...err Mac, the battery life drops steadily. In our Flash web browsing test battery life dropped to 4 - 5 hours depending on which Air you’re looking at. And the difference between the two isn’t all that great. The 13-inch only managed an extra 30 minutes of battery life.

Multitasking Battery Life

Our final battery life test is the worst case scenario. In this test we have three open Safari windows, each browsing a set of web pages with between 1 - 4 flash ads per page, at the same time. We're also playing an XviD video in a window all while downloading files from a server at 500KB/s.

Our heavy multitasking test is the biggest issue. Neither MacBook Air was able to deliver more than 3 hours of battery life on a single charge. The problem here isn’t just battery capacity but also the performance of the CPUs themselves. A major component of long lasting mobile battery life is a concept known as rush to idle.

Let’s say we have two CPUs. The first is an ultra low power CPU that only consumes 10W under load, but 0.5W at idle. The second is a high performance CPU that consumes 40W under load and 1W at idle. If it takes the first CPU 5ms to decode a frame of video at 10W but the second CPU can do it in 1ms, the total energy consumed over 33ms is is 0.064J for the first CPU and only 0.036J for the second CPU.

The longer the first CPU is idle, the more its typical and idle power advantages will come into play (hence the results in the light web browsing test). The more CPU bound the workload however, the more the advantage over the second more high performance CPU will disappear. Our heavy downloading/multitasking test is the most CPU bound of all of our battery life tests and the workload is consistent regardless of how fast you execute it. In other words, a faster CPU won’t be able to do more work, it’ll just be able to rush to idle quicker.

The battery life story boils down to your usage model, even more so than with the MacBook Pro. Light users are going to get wonderful battery life out of the new MacBook Air, particularly the 13-inch model. However, if you are the type of user who does a lot of multitasking or if you’re running particularly CPU intensive apps (e.g. Photoshop, iMovie, etc...) then these two notebooks will hardly last you. I suspect this is the distinction Apple is looking to make. If you’re a regular user, just playing around on Gmail and browsing the web then the MacBook Air is all you’ll need. If you are doing any work with your machine however, you’ll want to look towards the MacBook Pro.

You cherry picked the worst case scenario and the presented it as typical, and misrepresented Anandtechs findings AGAIN! That makes you a FUD spreader.

My calling you on it is not a personal attack. It's just a fact.

[ReignOfError]

<<
He has some super duper Mac beasts that he laid out thousands for. I'll bet that all he really uses them for is internet stuff and email. He has peons who do the photoshop stuff for him. I have never heard him talk about anything interesting he does with them.

I love the analogy of computers to other consumer goods, especially cars, but the analogy has its limits. Having a car with a 200mph top speed means nothing for most sane drivers, but a faster computer is always better. Apps launch faster, pages load faster, DVDs rip in nothing flat.

For most of us, that extra marginal utility, those extra few seconds, aren't worth the cost. But one of the main benefits of having insanely huge Limbaugh-scale money is not having to compromise on anything.

[PugetSoundSoldier]

You're wrong again... Please see another review of the battery life of the Apple Macbook Air 11. Note that it's BELOW average. Sorry, you're wrong again.

In fact, here's a little table of 10/11/12 inch display laptops, sorted by battery life from worst (top) to best (bottom). And the price is listed as well:

Model	Battery life	Price
Apple Macbook Air 11	5:13	$1,199.00
Asus EeePC 1215N	5:40	$483.90
HP tm2t	5:41	$919.00
Acer Timline X 1830T	5:53	$699.00
Samsung NB30	6:22	$311.30
Lenovo IdeaPad U150	6:32	$749.00
Samsung N150	7:12	$349.00
Alienware M11x	7:14	$1,099.00
HP Mini 5103	7:20	$668.00
Gateway EC14D07U	7:47	$629.00
Asus EeePC 1015PEM	8:07	$368.46
Acer Aspire One D255	8:14	$299.85

And a LOT of those units have significantly more horsepower than the Air 11. The Alienware, the HP tm2t, the Samsungs, for example. And even the 1215 has the same real-world processing capability (WoW native framerate) as the Air 11.

Again, it's plainly obvious - the FUD here is from the original article that "the Critics are losing the Apple price argument". Far from it, the new Macbook Air 11 proves once again that you pay a SERIOUS premium for an Apple product that is middling at best in terms of performance and capability (battery, as we see here, the Apple Macbook Air 11 being below average), but costs a lot more than superior alternatives that the user can easily upgrade, as well.

[Swordmaker]

You're wrong again... Please see another review of the battery life of the Apple Macbook Air 11. Note that it's BELOW average. Sorry, you're wrong again.

How am I wrong? We are NOT arguing the MacBook Air in comparison to other netbook computers... You claimed 2.5 hours to 4 hours, implying it was typical performance with typical usage. It is not... and I called FUD based on even the link you provided which showed the MacBook airs could provide up to over 11 hours depending on usage pattern. Now you provide even more proof that you were exaggerating your 2.5 to 4 hours claim. Thank you.

"Apple rates the battery life of the 11-inch MacBook Air at 5 hours, and we saw 5 hours and 18 minutes of runtime in our LAPTOP Battery Test (continuous web surfing over Wi-Fi). This test is run with the display on 40 percent brightness, so you'll get less endurance if you have the screen on full brightness. The MacBook Air's battery life is good, but it trails similarly sized systems such as the Asus Eee PC 1215N (5:40), Alienware M11x (5:59), and Acer Aspire TimelineX 1830T (5:53).<

Read more: Laptop Magazine: Apple 11-inch MacBook Air .

Let's look more deeply at your chart:

Model	Battery life	Processor	Processor Speed	Cores & Cache	RAM & Type	Operating System	Display and Resolution	Weight and Size	Case Material	Price
Apple Macbook Air 11	5:13	Intel Core 2 Duo	1.4 GHz	2 Cores, 3MB Cache	4GB, DDR3 1066MHz	OSX.6 Snow Leopard (64bit)	11.6" - 1366 x 768	2.3 Lbs. - 0.68" H X 11.8" W X 7.56" D	Machined Aluminum	$1,199.00
Asus EeePC 1215N	5:40	Intel Atom D525	1.8 GHz	2 cores, 1MB Cache	3GB, 800MHz DDR3	MS Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)	12.1" - 1366 x 768	3.4 Lbs - 1.4" H X 11.6" W X 8" D	Plastic	$483.90
HP tm2t	5:41	Intel Core i3-U330	1.2 GHz	2 cores, 3MB Cache	3GB, 1066 MHz DDR3	MS Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)	12.1" - 1200 X 800	4.4 Lbs - 1.5" H X 12" W X 9.3" D	Aluminum	$919.00
Acer Timeline X 1830T	5:53	Intel Core i5-U430UM	1.2 GHz	2 cores, 3MB Cache	1GB, 1066 MHz DDR3	MS Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)	11.6" - 1366 X 768	3.1 Lbs - 1.1" H X 11.2" W X 8" D	Plastic	$699.00
Samsung NB30	6:22	Intel Atom N450	1.66 GHz	1 core, 512KB Cache	1GB, 667 MHz DDR2	MS Windows 7 Starter Edition	10.1" - 1024 X 600	2.8 Lbs - 1.1" H X 10.4" W X 7.4" D	Plastic	$311.30
Lenovo IdeaPad U150	6:32	Intel Core 2 Duo SU7300	1.3 GHz	2 cores, 3MB Cache	3GB, 1066 MHz DDR3	MS Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)	11.6" - 1366 X 768	3.2 Lbs - 1.4" H X 11.4" W X 7.5" D	Plastic & Aluminum	$749.00
Samsung N150	7:12	Intel Atom N450	1.66 GHz	1 core, 512KB Cache	1GB, 667 MHz DDR2	MS Windows 7 Starter Edition	10.1" - 1024 X 600	2.8 Lbs - 1.1" H X 10.4" W X 7.4" D	Plastic	$349.00
Alienware M11x	7:14	Intel Core 2 Duo SU7300	1.3 GHz	2 cores, 3MB Cache	4GB, 1066 MHz DDR3	MS Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)	11.6" - 1366 X 768	3.2 Lbs - 1.4" H X 11.4" W X 7.5" D	Plastic & Aluminum	$1,099.00
HP Mini 5103	7:20	Intel Atom N550	1.5 GHz	2 cores, 1MB Cache	2GB, 1066 MHz DDR3	MS Windows 7 Home Premium (32-bit)	10.1" - 1366 X 768	2.8 Lbs - 1" H X 10.3" W X 7.1" D	Magnesium & Aluminum	$668.00
Gateway EC14D07U	7:47	1.3-GHz Intel Pentium SU4100	1.3 GHz	2 cores, 2MB Cache	4GB, 1066 MHz DDR3	MS Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)	11.6" - 1366 X 768	3.6 Lbs - 1.2" H X 11.5" W X 8.3" D	Plastic	$629.00
Asus EeePC 1015PEM	8:07	Intel Atom N550	1.5 GHz	2 cores, 1MB Cache	1GB, 1066 MHz DDR3	MS Windows 7 Starter Edition	10.1" - 1024 X 600	2.8 Lbs - 1.4" H X 10.3" W X 7.1" D	Plastic	$368.46
Acer Aspire One D255	8:14	Intel Atom N550	1.5 GHz	2 cores, 1MB Cache	1GB, 1066 MHz DDR3	MS Windows 7 Starter Edition	10.1" - 1024 X 600	2.4 Lbs - 0.95" H X 10.17" W X 7.28" D	Plastic	$299.85

And a LOT of those units have significantly more horsepower than the Air 11. The Alienware, the HP tm2t, the Samsungs, for example. And even the 1215 has the same real-world processing capability (WoW native framerate) as the Air 11.

The SAMSUNGS?????? You say the Samsungs have "significantly more horsepower than the Air 11"???? Who are you kidding??? They are equipped with single core Intel Atom N450s, with a 512 MB cache and a maximum memory size of only 2GB. They can only handle Windows7 Starter Edition... and that's what they are shipped with. Are you SURE you are an engineer???

What ARE you doing on an Apple thread again, misrepresenting facts AGAIN????

[PugetSoundSoldier]

I’m sorry, I thought your opening post said to discuss technical issues, and I’ve done so. I’ve not attacked anyone or shouted “FUD” or “liar” once...

As far as the comparisons go, I’ve listed what’s out there, and the performance scores for the laptops are available on the site I linked. You’ll find that many are a lot closer in performance than many would believe, because of the larger amount or RAM and better graphics chips.

I’ve plainly stated that the Air 11 is lighter, and that’s the big thing your getting for the $500+ premium. It’s not battery life, and it’s not performance. It’s light weight. That’s the sole advantage, and for most people, an extra 10-12 ounces is really immaterial.

I’ll bow out, I see you have taken offense at my purely technical, linked posts and have started calling in your supporters.

[dangerdoc]

I use both.

It’s Pepsi vs. Coke.

I now have the third hardware problem in 2 years with our Mac notebook. The CDs are getting stuck in the drive. Sword, is this a known problem?

[antiRepublicrat]

First, realize the market. This is ultra-portable. Size and weight are paramount, and command the highest prices. Apple didn't invent this market, but Apple competes in it.

Yes, it's 12 ounces heavier, so I guess you save $500 for 12 ounces, or about $670 per pound.

That's 50% heavier than the Mac, and size-wize probably at least twice the volume. Have you seen what Sony charges for its slim notebooks? Serious competition for the MacBook Air (weighing less, but being a bit bigger) starts at $1,300.

Even heftier if you consider the HP dm1z - about the same laptop, but for $100 less...

That would be the one with half the performance of the MacBook Air, more like netbook performance.

And it packs more storage (5 times as much as you can get in the Air), an equivalent CPU (from CPubBenchmark.net), same resolution on the screen.

SSD, which is getting popular with PC notebooks too, commands a higher price while giving less storage space. With ultra-portables, size of the computer and battery life matter far more than HDD capacity. Get a full-sized notebook if you're worried about capacity.

"Equivalent" CPU to you apparently includes the Mac having a 26% faster CPU (from your own source). Even with that performance disadvantage, the AMD still draws 20% more power, which is one reason the Dell has to ship with a much bigger battery.

And you get it with 4 GB RAM to start, customer upgradeable to 8 GB if you desire.

Not according to Dell on the 8 GB part.

And 3 USB ports, an SD card reader, and a real Ethernet jack, highly desirable

You haven't really gotten onto this whole "wireless" thing, have you? If you just have to be tied down with a highly-mobile laptop, get a USB-Ethernet adapter. More ports also means more size, weight and complexity. Do you know how many ports are out there? Just for video there's at least VGA, mini-VGA, HDMI, DVI, Mini-DVI, Micro-DVI, DisplayPort, mini DisplayPort. Instead of being stupid and trying to please everyone, or tying the user down to an obsolete 23 year-old connector (VGA), Apple includes the ONE BEST port for a notebook, mini DisplayPort that can handle the signal of all the others. People can get adapters if they need anything else.

[antiRepublicrat]

I’l take one at random. Alienware is cool. Interestingly, the Alienware’s battery is about twice as big as the MacBook Air’s, achieving not quite twice the battery life. Remember the market: Ultra-portable. Smaller and lighter is better. The Alienware is a LOT bigger, and about twice as heavy.

Your best battery life is achieved by a 10” NETBOOK with an Intel Atom processor and GMA graphics. Not quite in the same league there, although it still weighs more than the MacBook Air.

[Swordmaker]

I’m sorry, I thought your opening post said to discuss technical issues, and I’ve done so. I’ve not attacked anyone or shouted “FUD” or “liar” once..I’ll bow out, I see you have taken offense at my purely technical, linked posts and have started calling in your supporters. .

And you've distorted EVERY instance of the technical issues you've cited for the MacBook Airs... and exaggerated on the low side even those that may have some glimmer of truth. The offense is at the distortions of those "technical issues," not the postings or the comparisons. You cannot be honest in those posts. I do not doubt that there are fair comparisons or legitimately reasonable competitors that have more powerful offerings but when you state that the Samsungs you listed, with their single core Atom powered, with 512MB Cache, processors are more powerful than MBAs with dual core 3MB cache processors you have gone way overboard in discussing "reasonable" technical issues into the DEEP twilight zone, Puget. That is what I call, and will keep calling, FUD.

Some of the readers on here don't know the difference. That is why I posted the FACTS in the expanded chart... not your FUD. There is a difference and it is MORE than a mere 10-12 ounces of weight which, really is nothing to dismiss lightly in talking "tech issues." Nor is ignoring testing that found that many users would be getting more than 11 hours of battery life from the 13 hour MacBook Air and reporting they got only 2.5 to 4 hours of battery life, implying that was typical, especially when those figures are NOT TO BE FOUND IN THE REPORTS! That, Puget, was dishonest.

I’ve plainly stated that the Air 11 is lighter, and that’s the big thing your getting for the $500+ premium. It’s not battery life, and it’s not performance. It’s light weight. That’s the sole advantage, and for most people, an extra 10-12 ounces is really immaterial.

To retain performance, increase battery life to a phenomenal 11 hours in some instances, and put it into a 2.3 pound package is a BIG advantage, far lighter than the competition, and worth quite a bit of money. Many are willing to pay it. You are not. Some are willing to give up performance in exchange for light weight and size. Apple has been able to find a compromise... and they've lowered the price on their offering from what they had before.

[Swordmaker]

I now have the third hardware problem in 2 years with our Mac notebook. The CDs are getting stuck in the drive. Sword, is this a known problem?

Stuck in what way? Mechanically? Or are they still being used by an application? If the latter you can force ejected them. Mechanically, that's unusual... and I've not heard of it being a frequent problem.