Question to Birthers about Grandma Dunham's Alleged Fraud

Vanity

[curiosity]

One of the reasons birthers demand to see Obama's long-form birth certificate (as opposed to the short form already released) is that only the long-form lists the hospital.

Why is the hospital important? Well, birthers claim that if his birth was registered as having taken place at home, then it opens up the possibility that his birth was registered fraudulantly. That is, if he were born in Kenya, his grandma could have gone down to the local registrar, committed perjury by swearing she whitnessed his birth at home in Hawaii, and obtained a birth certificate saying he was born in Hawaii.

Now why would Grandma Dunham do such a thing? Well, birthers say in order to secure US citizenship for her grandson. They correctly point out that Mama Obama was too young to pass on US citizenship to her son automatically had he been born abroad. Therefore, birthers argue, to make sure Bambi got the benefits of US citizenship, Granny risked her freedom and career and committed perjury on his behalf.

There's a gaping hole in this story which birthers have yet to address: the fraud was unnecessary.

While it's true Obama would not be born a US citizen had be been born in Kenya, under section 101 and Title II section 205 of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, in effect at the time, as the minor child of a US citizen, Obama was entitled to a non-quota immigrant visa to enter the US.

Once back in the states, under Title III, section 322 Bambi would be eligible for natuarlization.

So you see, even if Obama were born in Kenya, it was possible to secure his citizenship through perfectly legal means. And no, it was not uncertain because the law explicitly presumed a child of "tender years" would be of good moral character. There were simply no grounds under the law to deny him citizenship once his mother petitioned for it on his behalf.

Yes, it probably would have taken some time for the government to precess the paperwork, maybe a couple years, but who cares? While waiting, Barry would be a permanent resident living in Hawaii with his mom, eligible for virtually all the rights and benefits that go with US citizenship.

So help me out, birthers. If there was no need to fraudulantly register Bambi's birth in Hawaii, what was Grandma Dunham's motive?

A few birthers have said it was to avoid the hassle of naturalization. Okay, let's take that as given.

So Stanely drops Barry in Kenya and sends a wire to grandma, who goes to the local registrar and, after committing perjury, gets a US birth certificate for her grandson. She then sends it to her daughter Kenya by whatever expensive means were available at the time. Great. Now what?

How does that help little Barry? He's still in Kenya and has no papers that would get him admitted to the US. A birth certificate doesn't help. He needs a passport or visa. He can't use the birth certificate for that, either, because a child born in the USA needs to apply for his passport before leaving the country, not afterward. Attempting to use it for this purpose at the US consolate in Kenya would have triggered an investigation and likely uncovered granny's fraud.

So tell me, birthers, what exactly did Grandma Dunham accomplish by committing perjury?

Now compare that to the legal way. Stanley drops litttle barry. She takes her passport and his birth certificate to the US consolate, and obtains a Declaration of Birth of a Child to a US Citizen Abroad. With that document she can get him a non-quota immigrant visa and enter the US without any trouble.

Seems to me the legal way would have involved much less hassle and stress.

So help me out, birthers. What am I missing?

[Vendome]

Ohhhhkay. It just absolutely does not make sense the Government doesn't keep records. I have to pass that declaration form forward to Agents who presumably do more than toss them in a bin, that awaits a BFI truck. So let me clarify, the government definitely keeps tabs on those who enter or leave this country and those records are stored two aisles over, from the Ark of the Covenant. Here is an article by a fellow from Newsweek: http://current.newsweek.com/budgettravel/2008/12/whats_in_your_government_trave.html Synopsis: The oversize white envelope bore the blue logo of the Department of Homeland Security. Inside, I found 20 photocopies of the government's records on my international travels. Every overseas trip I've taken since 2001 was noted. I had requested the files after I had heard that the government tracks "passenger activity." Starting in the mid-1990s, many airlines handed over passenger records. Since 2002, the government has mandated that the commercial airlines deliver this information routinely and electronically. It continues Here is a page of what those records look like:

I would think my government to be incompetent boobs if they didn't keep records.

 

Not that I want them to but it is a government

 

 

 

 

 

 

What say you now?  LOL

 

But Wait!  There's more....

 

(click the title for the entire article)

What's in a Passenger Name Record (PNR)?

Most travellers have never seen a PNR, and few people know what information is in the PNR's about them, or how it gets there. But with CAPPS-II and Secure Flight, you need to know: PNR's are the records about each airline passenger that are being used USA government's Secure Flight (formerly named "CAPPS-II") passenger surveillance and permission system and "no-fly" lists, and compiled into the Automated Targeting System (ATS) and other databases of the Transportation Security Agency (TSA) and Customs and Border Protection (CBP) divisions of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).

 

 

One of my old customers was American Airlines and I was very aware of the SABRE project and how it would interface with the government and the rest of the world.  But read the link above and see how extensive the info is used, how it is collected and who has access to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vendome]

Love it!

[LucyT]

What about the (presumably expired) 0bama passport the British Police are holding in their possession? From what country was that passport issued?

[Vendome]

Here you go Barb:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2549919/posts?page=81#81

[edge919]

Yes, it probably would have taken some time for the government to precess the paperwork, maybe a couple years, but who cares? While waiting, Barry would be a permanent resident living in Hawaii with his mom, eligible for virtually all the rights and benefits that go with US citizenship.

You're making a mistaken assumption here. At the time Barry was born, presumably his mother was married to his father and was planning to go wherever he was going. This certainly wouldn't have made him a permanent resident living in Hawaii, plus we know they didn't live in Hawaii after he was born — they lived in the state of Washington. Regardless, why fool with naturalization when you don't know where you're going to be living or if you're going to be living in the United States??

So Stanely drops Barry in Kenya and sends a wire to grandma, who goes to the local registrar and, after committing perjury, gets a US birth certificate for her grandson. She then sends it to her daughter Kenya by whatever expensive means were available at the time. Great. Now what?

Why do you go on about 'expensive means.' Somehow SAD was able to afford or pay for college in Seattle as a single mother and raise her child there. What's a little overseas postage going to matter??

How does that help little Barry? He's still in Kenya and has no papers that would get him admitted to the US. A birth certificate doesn't help. He needs a passport or visa. He can't use the birth certificate for that, either, because a child born in the USA needs to apply for his passport before leaving the country, not afterward.

How does an unborn baby or newborn apply for a passport?? This point makes no sense.

Attempting to use it for this purpose at the US consolate in Kenya would have triggered an investigation and likely uncovered granny's fraud.

For a newborn baby?? Not following this logic at all.

Now compare that to the legal way. Stanley drops litttle barry. She takes her passport and his birth certificate to the US consolate, and obtains a Declaration of Birth of a Child to a US Citizen Abroad. With that document she can get him a non-quota immigrant visa and enter the US without any trouble.

I don't see much evidence that SAD did things the legal way. There's no evidence of her alleged marriage to Barak Sr. except after the fact in a divorce decree. No marriage license or marriage announcement has even been presented. The permanent address of Mr. and Mrs. Barack Obama listed in the birth announcements was not an address where Barak Sr. was ever known to have resided. SAD claimed she had a marital relationship with Barak Sr. for two years in the divorce decree, but there's no evidence to support this claim. Why are we to believe she used a 'legal way' to register her baby as born abroad??

Seems to me the legal way would have involved much less hassle and stress.

Not at all. Granny claims to witness an unattended birth and gives a few details to the health department. The newly formed state of Hawaii is glad to claim as many citizens as possible. Why would either quibble over minor details??

So help me out, birthers. What am I missing?

I can't speak for birthers, but since you appear to be a faither, you are missing quite a bit.

[Plummz]

Why do you hate America?

[Beckwith]

I think we ought to hold a hearing.

[Beckwith]

What am I missing?

The "Log Out" link.

[Beckwith]

what passport did he travel on as a young adult. And what citizenship did he claim in college.

Most likely, he had two passports, and two citizenships. He was whatever served his purposes at any given moment. Go to Punahou, American. Go to Occidental, Indonesian. Go to Pakistan, Indonesian. Go to Columbia, American.

Remember, who we're dealing with, here.

What I want to know is how come there are no females in this guy's life.

[Beckwith]

What about you why deride the birthers, why make excuses for Obama?

He's a dickhead with too much time on his hands. He says it himself, he does it to aggravate people.

Some kind of personality disorder, no doubt.

[bjorn14]

Well actually they do now because of the machine readable passports. When you go through immigration they swipe your passport. I travel between Europe and the US a few times a year. Also, even citizens in visa waiver countries have to pre-register before entering the US.

[bjorn14]

“What I want to know is how come there are no females in this guy’s life.”

Bingo! I have been wondering this for a looooong time. The only female we know of is the beard..Michelle.

[Vendome]

They always have.

[blau993]

It is possible that at the time Obama was born children could still travel on their parents’ passports. This later changed. Our son accompanied my wife and me on a trip to Europe in 1977, when he was 9 years old, and I am pretty sure he didn’t have his own passport until much later.

[Kleon]

Why? For one simple reason — why would you spend $2 Million or so on legal fees to avoid showing a birth certificate???

I don't know why you would. Obama didn't. That rumor was debunked already.

[Menehune56]

1. troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

Using a disrespectful term like "birther" is a dead giveaway as to curiosity's motives.

[Menehune56]

Interesting thread on the Mitt Romney eligibility issue:
ttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2516428/posts

[Menehune56]

why would you spend $2 Million or so on legal fees to avoid showing a birth certificate???
I don't know why you would. Obama didn't. That rumor was debunked already.

Do you have a citation for this debunking?

[Ditter]

Thanks for answering my question. It doesn’t matter to me either way, he is not my candidate and I do not support him for other reasons.

[ml/nj]

Passport records do not include evidence of travel such as entrance/exit stamps

I think this is a little bit Clintonesque. What the US probably does not have is information regarding all the visas (usually just stamped into the passport) that foreign countries give.

But the US government definitely has a record of every time you enter the country, or at least it used to. I saw mine once when when the immigration (or customs, not sure which) guy had his computer screen turned too much toward me. I also observed that, when I was making regular trips, the customs folks stopped asking me questions about what I was carrying after they once made me open my luggage. (My regular answer was, "A weeks worth of dirty laundry." One time the customs guy sternly said to me, "Open it." I wasn't asked again until there was a long interval between trips.)

ML/NJ