Posted on 05/30/2010 4:41:07 PM PDT by JoeProBono
ORLANDO, Fla.- Parents of a home-schooled 13-year-old Florida girl say they are filing a complaint because she's being denied entry to college because of her age.
The retired engineer parents of Anastasia "Annie" Megan say they have gone as far as they can go in educating their daughter. She's almost completed her high school education and they've applied for Annie to take dual-enrollment classes at Lake-Sumter Community College in Leesburg, Florida, but they've been turned down by college officials, who say she's not ready to be in classes with older students, the Orlando Sentinel reported Sunday.
The parents have filed an age-discrimination complaint with the U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights against the college.
"If she meets all the qualifications but for her age, then why not let her in?" asked her mother, Louise Racine. "What's the worst that can happen, honestly? If a child does pass these tests, don't you think they should be allowed to continue their education to the next level and continue to let their minds grow?"
Although college President Charles Mojock would not comment specifically, the Sentinel said, he talked about the freedom of the college environment.
"Anyone basically can walk onto our campus," Mojock said. "So we've got a very different environment (than a high school). … And we have many adult students having adult conversations on adult topics and that may or may not be suitable for some young students."
"It's a shame to see the (college) administration taking the go-slow approach to a bright student who wants to continue to learn," Annie's father John Megan said.
When you’ve got four years in which to meet the degree requirements and for a major that you’ve chosen, you’ve got specific required courses that you must have, then upper level ones that must come later, but only as prerequisites are completed earlier — and then with courses that happen only once a year “in sequence” (like Fall, Winter, Spring) — and you have certain electives that may only come once a year and maybe only two quarters out of that year — then you’ve really got a “scheduling problem” ... :-)
If you’re not careful, you’ll end up with 12 credit hours one quarter and then 24 credit hours in another quarter, which would be a “killer” schedule for that quarter, if you could even do it.
BUT, for those who just “saunter along” — and don’t really care if they get so many courses, and only take one or two courses here and there... it doesn’t matter too much. But, from my experience, most of the people who are going to university level classes — are getting their degrees and they’re trying to get it all done in the required four-year time span.
That may be the difference that some people “may not get” here ... :-) Some people (from what I read) are simply getting a few classes here and a few classes there, and that’s no big deal ...
I’m talking about “seriously” going to university and getting a four-year degree.
Please point out to me where anyone is advocating that. I'm formerly homeschooled and a college grad as well, so I can talk to you about it either way.
Also, leave out any smileys and "lol"s please. If you need to insult someone by hiding behind that crap, then you need to be far more careful with your statements.
So, your a democrat and you think this would be OK... Why am I not surprised?
Please point out to me where anyone is advocating that.
It's not something that someone "advocates" for a student -- it's something that goes on, no matter what one advocates ... you see ... :-)
The point of the matter is this. You've got a 14-year old homeschooled student who is developmentally/socially advanced (as I've been told, and so I accept that as I'm told here). I understand that this 14-year-old girl will operate at a socially higher level than the comparable student in public school, even equivalent to adult levels and at least equivalent to the level of students in the university (who range from around 18 to about maybe 24 years old). So, that's fine, and I'm not going to quibble about that. It sounds good to me.
Now, what I know is how this 14-year old girl is going to find herself interacting with others, especially when she's already operating at a higher level of social competence than her literal age. In addition, I've been told that she can also end up looking older, in many cases (someone was saying that up above). Thus, you've got someone who acts older, is more competent socially, and may also look older (perhaps making herself look older, too, as might be possible in order to fit in more with others who are actually older).
So, no one is "advocating" that this 14-year old act in any certain way. That's not the point. The point is that she's going to make a decision for herself on how she is going to act, with other guys who are in college who want to be intimate with her. And when you get a selection of various 14-year old homeschooled girls in a situation like that, some will choose for themselves to be involved with an older college guy and others will not. Even if the selection is varied in a 80/20 spread or a 90/10 spread (depending on how you think it's going to turn out), it's going to end up in some spread of those decisions, for that 14-year old when she decides whether to be intimately involved with some 20-year old guy.
And I'm saying that since this 14-year old girl is as socially/mentally advanced as an adult and definitely so, compared to those other 18-24 year olds in college -- then her decision to be involved with a 20-year old guy or not, is just as legitimate as a 19-year old girl's decision would be.
Also, as I was saying to another poster, above, it's not that she has to choose for being involved, it's that whatever that 14-year old chooses for herself -- it's a legitimate decision for herself to make to be involved with a 20-year old guy or not. ... and that's the basic point ... that's all ... :-)
Also, leave out any smileys and "lol"s please. If you need to insult someone by hiding behind that crap, then you need to be far more careful with your statements.
LOL ... sorry... I don't change my posting style for anyone ... :-)
I’m talking about “seriously” going to university and getting a four-year degree.
You're looking at it from the point of view of the type of university student who lives in a dorm. :-) That type of student either borrows money to pay for college, or his parents pay the bill, or both. For those students, college is a social experience: There are parties and frat houses and sororities and lots of socializing for them.
But, there are other students who earn their degrees without living at college. One might argue that we were more serious about it. I didn't socialize at CC or the university, even when I was attending full-time classes in the day. No one I knew who commuted to school did. Completing two years at a CC and transferring the credit to a university was what many of us did. Many people earn their degrees that way.
I know what it's like scheduling classes. As I said, I went full-time for two years. Later, when transferring the credit to a university, I attended full-time there at first. Scheduling classes is even more important when you're commuting. I didn't have the luxury of walking back to a dorm room. I would have to hang around if I didn't schedule efficiently. I had to juggle not only the class schedule but a work schedule, too. I stopped taking courses just one semester short of my degree, but many working people who attend part-time do earn their degrees.
Not every university experience is the same. For example, Drexel offers a popular co-op program: the university places students into jobs related to their majors part of the year. It takes five years for a full-time student to earn a degree through that program, and they are serious students.
Now, back to the subject at hand: The reasons why homeschooled students start taking dual-credit courses when they're young is: (1) They will have an official record of the courses they completed during high school age, and (2) they can start building college credit early.
So, a 13yo girl might start in one course the first semester, and then two courses the next, and so on, until she can handle a full courseload. She has time on her hands, so she can take her time. She can take night classes where there is a mixture of ages, including older, working adults and other teenaged students. There are no dorms at a CC; everyone is commuting. A parent can hang around on campus, while she's in class. As I said, it is typical for homeschooled teens where I live to take dual-credit courses at CC. Some school students do it, too.
I mentioned, up above Portland State University and Oregon State University. Now, Portland State is more of a commuter university, although they do have those who live right next to the University, too. But, I would say that most of the students there commuted from the Portland area. That was what I did.
And those courses that I was talking about were at Portland State University, and again, I did not live on campus. But, I still spent time in the labs, at the University library, and stayed there in between classes, had group assignments, worked with other people in those classes, and had the same kind of university class experience as being on campus.
In fact, I was more likely to stay “on campus” in between classes at Portland State University than I was at Oregon State University. At Oregon State, since I was on campus grounds (it was quite large), if I had a gap in between classes, I would just go back to my residence.
At Portland State, I would not go back home again, I would stay right there on campus. So, it might be the reverse of what you might think at Portland State as compared to Oregon State — in that I stayed on campus around the core of the University a lot more at Portland State (the commuter school) than I did when I actually lived on campus, down at Oregon State... LOL ...
I didn’t live in a dorm at either one of those universities. At Portland State, I lived in a house in the Portland city proper, but yet, had the same experience in terms of classes and labs and meeting course requirements and having to take whatever scheduling I could get for my classes.
And it was the same for a lot of other students at Portland State University, in having to schedule the full-time classes and yet not live on campus, and do all the same things for university classes as would go on at Oregon State University.
Now, at Oregon State University, I didn’t live in a dorm there either, but lived on campus in a group housing facility called a “co-op” (kinda of like a fraternity, in a way, except not one ... :-) ...). But, we were right next to all the big dorms, just a couple of hundred feet away from some (one was “the Quad”, if anyone has been to Oregon State). And then later, I lived slightly off campus (a couple of blocks away, in an apartment) on one side of it, but I was closer to some of my classes than when I lived “on campus” (just because of the location of the apartment, as compared to the location of the “co-op” even though the co-op was squarely on campus).
The class load and work was the same, the scheduling problems were the same, in the living situation, I lived on campus and off campus, both, at Oregon State, but it was a college town, as opposed to Portland, which was a city in its own right. I still had to meet the proper course requirements in both universities, had to keep up the right schedule of classes from quarter to quarter and year to year in both universities for the major. It was no different in that respect and in the pace and the course load. You still had university friends at either place.
The only thing I see that is different from what you’re saying is “not” a difference between a commuter school versus campus-living — that’s not the difference. The real difference is if you’re serious about getting your course work done in the proper amount of time or not. Sure, back then there were some who were taking about six years to get done what others were getting done in 4 years, but most all students were getting all their course work done in four years, no matter whether they lived on campus or not.
At the university level, pretty much all your courses were transferable from one university to the next. But, if you went to a Community College, you might find that those courses were not as easily transferable, as the ones at the university level. I wouldn’t go to a Community College back then, because it would have slowed me down (wouldn’t get credit for all courses) and would not have been as good courses as those at Portland State and Oregon State.
And talking about a “full course load” when I was in high school I was taking a full course load there (and picked courses there, too, to get be ready for college) and I jumped straight into a full course load in my first term at college, and had no problem at all. I never missed a beat.
At first, I was called into Portland State (before starting) and asked if I wanted to set up my entire course structure, itself, from the ground up and I would work with professor/advisor who would oversee me setting up all my courses. I would basically “self-construct” my courses and basically self-teach and get university credit for all my course work. They told me that I qualified for that. But, when considering that, I figured it was a lot more work than I wanted to put into it, than taking the “ready-made courses” that everyone else was taking. So, I didn’t go for that one ... LOL ...
So, I’m not talking about just taking a few courses here and there, but being serious about the university work and getting it done just like any other regular university student.
And talking about Community Colleges, I would say that is for those who want to “bootstrap” their way into university level work and don’t feel like they can meet up to university level work, right off the bat. And I suppose there are many like that, but that’s not the way I did it or many others in the thousands that were going at the same time I was going to the universities [and right now there’s about 24,000 going to Portland State University and about 22,000 going to Oregon State University].
Don’t let him get to you metmom. He does the same on many threads and is just doing it to get you mad. I won’t even respond to him anymore.
Your entire premise is based on false assumptions. She's not living there, she's not partying there. She goes to class, she goes home, she goes back to class. That's it. I don't know about your classes, but mine involved minimal nudity and sex. It was about the same as a high school class. Sit in your chair, take notes, ask questions, get to your next class. That's it. All the stuff you're worrying about is what goes down "after hours"--when she won't be around.
I have found ST to be a disruptor on certifigate threads, so it comes as no surprise to find her doing the same on homeschooling threads. Her conservative credentials are an open question.
Oops, I forgot to add my usual plug for fast tracking and the FR High School Diploma.
Like Bill Gates says, High School is a waste of time.
___________________________________________________________________
Here’s my modest proposal for education reform.
We have been discussing ways to fast track kids through high school to avoid the liberal agenda and other idiocies:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1315730/posts?page=84#84
Proposal for the Free Republic High School Diploma.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1316882/posts
I think I havbe found, in your post #160, our differences and why they exist.
You wrote: “So, those 14-year old homeschooled girls, being as advanced socially/mentally then “either one of those two decisions” (no matter which one that 14-year old chooses for herself) is to be respected as much as one would respect that for an 18-year old or 20 year old. That’s because that 14-year old is as capable as that 18-20 year old is (being that she is homeschooled).”
While I am a bit confused, I think you are conflating the 14 year old’s decision making as compared to a 18 year old’s decision making capabilities with an individual making decisions.
In my posts, I assumed the discussion was about an individual, not an age class. I tend to deal with individuals, since “age classes” are notoriously difficult to interview.
What I tried to address was the idea that a 13 year old girl can make well informed decisions, even wise ones.
The central issue to me is whether the individual makes wise decisions, not how many years old they are. in this case, I tend to trust the individual parents and the individual student.
The attempt to make all encompassing rules is an attempt to write a perfect law, something which Aristotle warned against. He said life was so complex that we had to rely on judgment, not judicial perfection, as Greek law could not ever be written to be equal all.
He was describing a community of only 30,000 voters, perhaps a maximum of 40,000. He therefore concluded that human judgment was unavoidable.
As judicial perfection is impossible, so is academic perfection.
I am most thankful that as an American, I have not only the jury for judgment, I have many sources of information for my education, as does the family being discussed.
In teh long run, individual decisions will win over central decisions, ecause they allow for more creativity.
And, creativity produces all sorts of good things. As proof, I note AMerica has the greatest amount of individual decision making possibilities, and has become the most productive nation.
‘Nuff said.
Enjoy Memorial Day, and remember to ask your friends to remember those who gave all that we might be free.
Likewise, no academi
Yes, sadly that's true.
For some FR posters, it's the thrill of the battle that they enjoy most.
The subject being discussed really doesn't matter for them.
They will attack a poster's position with snide and/or insulting stereotyping comments and then attach a smiley face.
Then they will hang on like a pit bull, spending hours dissecting other posts, in full battle mode.
As they do so, they sometimes make good points, but mostly just try to "make points".
What they unwittingly accomplish is to provide FR readers much more insight into them than they realize they are doing.
I read a lot of FR and tend skip over their posts after awhile because even if they sometimes make good points, their incessant desire to "win" becomes tiresome reading.
You don’t really know what you’re talking about. As a homeschooler who started community college classes at 15, whose homeschool community did the same sort of thing - nobody went crazy, nobody’s teenage daughter started sleeping around. Parental supervision is entirely possible at community college.
Ok, so by the end of my time there, when I was almost 18, I did fall in with a different crowd and started watching anime and playing Dungeons and Dragons but that’s hardly the same thing...
She should do online college. We have many homeschoolers here at the Junior College who are this age. It’s California, tho, and not Florida.
As a homeschooling mom, I too agree with the school. She should only be allowed to take individual classes, with her parent waiting outside the door of the classroom after each, or even sitting in the back.
There is just about nothing you can’t learn from books or online. She doesn’t need, at early puberty, to be alone all day on a campus with wild college kids. As a college, I’d not want that responsibility.
My kids take college courses at around age 14 or 15, ONE course at a time and I meet them outside the class.
Little pubescent girls (and boys) need protecting.
“So, your a democrat and you think this would be OK... Why am I not surprised?”
In answer to your snide remarks, no. First off, I’m not a Democrat. I’ve always been a conservative, and I walked out the “D” door some time ago. Although I do think that if we’re ever going to achieve any level of lasting conservatism in the U.S., we’re going to have to deal with the internal dynamics of the “D” party. At this point I keep the handle for nostalgia as much as anything.
Secondly, I don’t agree with sovereign immunity conceptually. But I don’t deny that it exists.
Your underlying argument is specious. Neither a shopping mall nor a public college is likely to face legal liability for the actions of third parties who come onto the facility. Neither a mall management nor a public college administrators are expected to act as chaperones for minors. There is no indication that the parents in this case expect or want that sort of service. They simply want their child, based on her aptitude and skills, to have access to a tax supported facility.
“nor a public college administrators are expected to act as chaperones for minors.”
I would expect that most people WOULD expect a school to provide a safe environment for a child that is a student there, just as day-care businesses are expected to.
Sorry about the democrat comment, I was only going by your handle...
No need to grandstand on this. There is CLEP, which could cover two years of college, and if the kid is so smart, she could take on line courses and self study towards being a third year student at age 16, I am certain.
I wouldn’t and didn’t expose my young ones to the horrid atmosphere at the local community college until they were 15, and that was still pretty young.
Well...that's why I'm so screwed up.
My parents let me hang with the 18 yr old kid down the street..who was always pulling his engine out of his '70 something Chevy Camero. Rebuilding it..and I handed him tools, washed parts, and basically bugged the hell out of him for hours.
Another older kid on the street...introduced me to slot cars...and we spent hrs there together. It's a wonder I'm even alive.
My best buddy and I used too play "over-the-line" with two guy's that were 4-5 yrs older than us..when we were something like 14...My mom never worried, my dad never worried. But that certainly messed my best buddy up...He's an attorney now.
Used to surf with older kids all the time....they hauled me to the beach. Put up with me...Heck I think they even liked me a little.
It's a wonder I'm not in prison.
Most people go apesh*t when they hear about a really young kid doing something unusual. This news story is proof of that. I'm sorry she was denied entrance to that college. There are other options and other colleges who will take her. I, personally, would encourage independent study or online classes AND let her be a 13yr old. It's not going to kill her to graduate at a normal time and enter the workforce as an adult!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.